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Piston vs direct impingement has been beaten like a rented mule over at old ARfcom. Most of it is sheer, technical speculation; for mere mortals, it doesn't matter.
It may not matter for anyone, actually. Shot the snot out of my issued M16A1 (never had to run thru' the jungle with it), and full auto troubled it not at all.
Since Evil Black Rifles make the libs crazy, everyone should have one. Or two...
Moon
 

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Discussion Starter #142 (Edited)
I like how clean and cool the POF piston gun runs.


The bonus is no powder fumes in the face, and the adjustability, even a "no gas" to piston position, each round must be cycled manually (like a bolt gun).


Lovin' it.
 

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Discussion Starter #143
Found this video interesting.




The comments by owners of both the FN Scar and POF are eye opening, POF is considered the better "Battle Rifle". Also, Battlefield Vegas has a few POF P308s with round counts of over 200k.


Flame on armchair "operators"!
 

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I like how clean and cool the POF piston gun runs.


The bonus is no powder fumes in the face, and the adjustability, even a "no gas" to piston position, each round must be cycled manually (like a bolt gun).


Lovin' it.
I'm with you on this one. I too like how clean and cool the best piston guns are. I just like, respect and slightly prefer it.

That being said DI guns are fine, have their advantages and are beyond proven at this point.

As halfmoon said, the topic has been debated to death with almost religious fervor.

I always thought the answer was to get one (at least) of each.
 

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Discussion Starter #145 (Edited)
After spending some time during the last 6 months looking into various AR forums (on the Piston VS DI subject), my take away?


Over 95% of the info is regurgitated BS by "armchair operators", who don't go into the details of their builds or give round counts. DI is less costly and easier to set up, so piston ARs are the forums "whipping boy". A significant percentage of posters have not even shot more then a few rounds from a piston gun, and for most who have, it's been a Scar 17.


When someone posts who actually DOES go into details, and has 10ks or 100ks of round experience, they usually "poison the well" by opening with a comment like "YOUR comment is about the STUPIDEST comment I've read this year" or such.


I think the whole AR Forum side of the internet needs close supervision, I'm talking toddler level, and the majority of posters need lessons on how to engage in a productive dialog.


Guys doing "ultra-lightweight" piston AR builds with pencil barrels and short op-rods (to save every gram possible, because, you know, operator), then complaining about nasty harmonics killing accuracy.
DUH, what DID you expect? You bought all the lightest/smallest stuff available, and built a 3moa bullet hose! Now sell that useless collection of expensive parts for 25% of what it cost you. Their take away? Piston operation ARs suck for accuracy, and NOBODY will tell them otherwise.


Others doing the "cheapest parts" piston builds, having serious "carrier tilt" or other issues caused by excessive play between parts, then claiming "piston ARs suck".


My favorite? Those buying these "universal" adapter kits that convert DI to piston. It runs like junk, they post that piston ARs suck, and they're out ~$250, so they need to VENT HARD!

Not only do some builders not have a basic working knowledge of Mechanical Engineering or Physics/Dynamics, I would bet some never even picked up a micrometer or caliper during their builds.
 

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I finally bought an AR in May 2012.
Being the frugal and practical type that I am. I bought a Del-Ton 20 inch flat top kit with A2 front sight and an S&W M&P serialized receiver. Troy flip up two aperature rear sight and a Geissel two stage trigger.
$650 total.
Magazines PMAG gen 2 and 3
FN AR-15 STANAG close out CDNN
Two SCAR16 mags.
This rig has shot 100% reliable so far with me
Accuracy is good.
I even occasionally put on a Leupold VX 1 3x9 - 40 hunting scope that I had with QD Burris BEPR scope mount .
That's my one and done AR.
 

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After spending some time during the last 6 months looking into various AR forums (on the Piston VS DI subject), my take away?


Over 95% of the info is regurgitated BS by "armchair operators", who don't go into the details of their builds or give round counts. DI is less costly and easier to set up, so piston ARs are the forums "whipping boy". A significant percentage of posters have not even shot more then a few rounds from a piston gun, and for most who have, it's been a Scar 17.


When someone posts who actually DOES go into details, and has 10ks or 100ks of round experience, they usually "poison the well" by opening with a comment like "YOUR comment is about the STUPIDEST comment I've read this year" or such.


I think the whole AR Forum side of the internet needs close supervision, I'm talking toddler level, and the majority of posters need lessons on how to engage in a productive dialog.


Guys doing "ultra-lightweight" piston AR builds with pencil barrels and short op-rods (to save every gram possible, because, you know, operator), then complaining about nasty harmonics killing accuracy.
DUH, what DID you expect? You bought all the lightest/smallest stuff available, and built a 3moa bullet hose! Now sell that useless collection of expensive parts for 25% of what it cost you. Their take away? Piston operation ARs suck for accuracy, and NOBODY will tell them otherwise.


Others doing the "cheapest parts" piston builds, having serious "carrier tilt" or other issues caused by excessive play between parts, then claiming "piston ARs suck".


My favorite? Those buying these "universal" adapter kits that convert DI to piston. It runs like junk, they post that piston ARs suck, and they're out ~$250, so they need to VENT HARD!

Not only do some builders not have a basic working knowledge of Mechanical Engineering or Physics/Dynamics, I would bet some never even picked up a micrometer or caliper during their builds.
There is a lot of wisdom in this post. Piston guns can be excellent but DUA is right, slapping a cheap assp piston kit onto your DI AR is not a recipe for success. It would be like buying a 35 dollar rifle scope at Walmart and then proclaiming that optics suck.

I dont frequent the AR forums much any more for the reasons you mention. High school ended a long time ago for me. I have no desire to go back.
 

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Discussion Starter #148
There is a lot of wisdom in this post. Piston guns can be excellent but DUA is right, slapping a cheap assp piston kit onto your DI AR is not a recipe for success. It would be like buying a 35 dollar rifle scope at Walmart and then proclaiming that optics suck.

I dont frequent the AR forums much any more for the reasons you mention. High school ended a long time ago for me. I have no desire to go back.

Those kits to swap from DI to Piston blow my mind, almost ignoring the fact that ANY functioning AR only operates because the SYSTEM allows the firearm to function properly.


Those who messed up their DI guns blame the Piston for the failure. Total ignorance. Then the online tribe parrots the "piston ARs suck" trope.
 

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Discussion Starter #149 (Edited)
POF intentionally runs a piston gun "over-gassed" (gas plug set to WIDE open setting), and without lube, for over 10,000 rounds in UNDER 10,000 seconds. For reference, I run my P308 in the 3rd from max plug position w/168gr Hornady Black A-Max.


https://www.ballisticmag.com/2019/06/10/hornady-pof-p415-torture-test/


Gun never failed and stayed in the fight.


Even started "cooking off" rounds due to chamber heat, but no failure.


It would be interesting if FN (or an FN retailer) would do a Scar response video.
 

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DUA! Wow man, you have stuck with it and done the research! Good for you, (although I’m not surprised - you strike me as a smart guy, with all the P5 collecting...). You have done better than 97% of new AR builders/buyers.

My very quick/short thoughts:

Pistons are best when one is looking for heavy amounts of fire (full-auto, mag-dumps, binary trigger rifles, super-big prairie dog towns) OR for AR-10 platforms (for .308 or 6.5, I do not have experience with some of the esoteric AR-10-sized calibers). In other words, heavy amounts of gas and heat conditions.

DI is best when the goal is a lightweight set-up. (I just did one for my daughter.) Lightweights can be very accurate, but they must be built right and not expected to keep accuracy with mag dumps. Quality of the lightweight barrel is very important.

For a “basic” AR rifle, either will work, and the advantages/disadvantages become muddy arguments. It basically comes down to the hype the person believes, as most people, like you found, can’t provide data or even explain the factors.

POF is a very impressive AR manufacturer who does not get enough attention/credit. When my buddy and I stopped by their booth at the NRA convention years ago and saw their innovation, we became customers and admirers. You’ve done great DUA!
 

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DUA! Wow man, you have stuck with it and done the research! Good for you, (although I’m not surprised - you strike me as a smart guy, with all the P5 collecting...). You have done better than 97% of new AR builders/buyers.

My very quick/short thoughts:

Pistons are best when one is looking for heavy amounts of fire (full-auto, mag-dumps, binary trigger rifles, super-big prairie dog towns) OR for AR-10 platforms (for .308 or 6.5, I do not have experience with some of the esoteric AR-10-sized calibers). In other words, heavy amounts of gas and heat conditions.

DI is best when the goal is a lightweight set-up. (I just did one for my daughter.) Lightweights can be very accurate, but they must be built right and not expected to keep accuracy with mag dumps. Quality of the lightweight barrel is very important.

For a “basic” AR rifle, either will work, and the advantages/disadvantages become muddy arguments. It basically comes down to the hype the person believes, as most people, like you found, can’t provide data or even explain the factors.

POF is a very impressive AR manufacturer who does not get enough attention/credit. When my buddy and I stopped by their booth at the NRA convention years ago and saw their innovation, we became customers and admirers. You’ve done great DUA!
MMA10mm, I think you've boiled down the pluses and minus well.

The new battle rifles being produced around the world these days tend to be piston designs. I'm talking about the newest stuff produced by the Germans,Belgians,Israelis,Poles,Czechs, ... There is a reason for that.

If someone is going for a super lightweight AR, the DI system has advantage there.

If I want an AR style varmint gun or you are going to Camp Perry, I'd personally lean DI.

Both systems work though. Pick your poison. Maybe think about which attributes are most important to you.

Very few of us will be fighting for extended periods in the forests of Europe, going to Camp Perry or carry the rifle enough to where that lightest possible weight AR is advantageous.

The AR platform is very mature. Buy a top tier one and it will most likely be very reliable, more accurate and more durable than you ever need.


But buy one. Maybe buy two.
 

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Discussion Starter #152 (Edited)
Here's that 70k round P308 FA piston gun that just keeps running, the barrel is producing groups ~1.1 MOA (with a few minor items replaced, minor as in under $200 in parts. I know because I've purchased full gas piston system and BC Group rebuild kits for my P308).


https://pof-usa.com/torture/
 

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Discussion Starter #153
First cool weather day in Texas, had over 110 straight days of temps exceeding 90.


Cleaned the AR-10 (went shooting over the weekend, mounted and used the BUIS for the first time).


Grabbed some pics of the BUIS sights I chose for the P308 (after over 6 months of looking). The POF "backbone" design increases the distance between barrel C/L and top rail by ~7/16" (when compared to "standard" ARs). This requires "low rise" sights like those used by some HK rifles.


After all that searching I came to the conclusion that the POF (Frank D) and Diamondhead designed Micro-D sights were the way to go. I was very surprised with how accurate the rifle was with these sights.
 

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That is a bunch of hardware, DUA. To reiterate my earlier comment, you really need something a bit lighter and more mobile in 5.56 to complement that big old .308 ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #155
That is a bunch of hardware, DUA. To reiterate my earlier comment, you really need something a bit lighter and more mobile in 5.56 to complement that big old .308 ;)

Hoping to see some good prices on my (and my two sons) "wish list" guns during/after the Christmas and New Years holidays.


I grabbed that pair of HK P7 M13 (shooter and safe queen) for REALLY good prices in late '18/early '19. Seems that's a good time to buy, people traveling/holiday shopping, budgets tight (due to holiday spending), focus on friends/family/loved ones.....'tis the season for firearm bargains.
 

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Now that you have a “Battle-Rifle,” I recommend what I like to call a “CQB Pistol.”



I have since upgraded this to an SBA3 brace, which is 100x better than the original. Sorry, all I have is this 2-yr-old pic. I have 3 pistols now, and love them.
 

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Discussion Starter #157 (Edited)
As I suspected back in March (The Gun Dock had 4 available after my purchase), Mod#01221 in no longer produced/available from POF.


A friend who was out at the shooting get together two weeks ago contacted me to find out who I got mine thru (TGD), he is unable to locate a NIB gun anywhere.


Seems those 4 WERE the last available examples.
 

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Discussion Starter #158
Now that the long term reviews of the Magpul GEN M3 LR/SR D-50 Drum mags have been done (ALL positive, Ks of rounds, some without ANY cleaning), and the price has come down ~30%, I picked up two.
 

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