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Hard to beat the Scorp for the money, but you will want a 'brace' or a stock. The OEM folder is a sweetheart, but will cost you a tax stamp with a short barrel. Mine goes bang all the time, and they come with decent irons, but a red dot makes more sense (and ol' Moon doesn't like the words 'battery' and 'gun' in one sentence). The proprietary mags are cheap and good.
All kinds of bling available as well.

Moon
I'm not knocking them, but all these horse pistol-sized two-handers with or without arm braces are just range toys. With a shoulder stock they have some practical use but if they are pure blowback guns they are cheek-pounders.

For defensive application, one can do a lot more damage with a solid, well-balanced semi-auto pistol with good sights.

JMO, which you are free to summarily dismiss.

M
 

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For defensive application, one can do a lot more damage with a solid, well-balanced semi-auto pistol with good sights.
Likewise, I never understood the nearly universal choice by mass-murderers to use an AR in close confines such as schools, movie theatres, etc.
 

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Personally, I've never found the blowback guns objectionable in recoil, and making hits under stress with a carbine easier than with a handgun. Concur entirely that they are about worthless (no matter how badmule it may look to shoot one from the hip) without a brace or stock. Without a stock, an ordinary handgun is better.
Moon
 

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Personally, I've never found the blowback guns objectionable in recoil,...
Moon
Moon, I don't think it's the amount of recoil per se, but the way it is poorly handled in closed-bolt pure-blowback "carbines" (or elephantine "pistols" with full or armrest stocks). I can comfortably spend an hour shooting a Mauser .375 H&H offhand without complaint. But the former are just nasty if you assume a firm cheek weld. The designers try to make the receiver as short as possible for compactness' sake, so there's not much travel to let the bolt exhaust itself by running out on the recoil spring(s). The recoiling mass is heavy because there's no locking system, and bringing it to a short halt transmits the impact to the shooter.

Also there is no benefit from advance primer ignition that is obtained from open-bolt operation; in a submachine gun the firing of the round occurs simultaneously with bolt closure, absorbing much of the recoil by stopping and reversing the momentum of the mass. Compared to closed-bolt "carbines", most SMGs have very little felt recoil. Even in closed-bolt SMGs with a locking system, recoil is mild, as the H&K MP5 demonstrates.

The newest SIG gun of this genre actually has a locking system (and a well-designed SMG magazine, not some elongated pistol mag). However, it is predictably more expensive than the CZ. I'd be interested in shooting one sometime.

M
 

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Mike, your points are taken, and that difference in perceived recoil is illustrated between a locked breech G42 and a straight blowback PPK, both in .380.
That said, my two (current) blowback carbines, and a departed one (Colt 9mm, CZ Scorp and Beretta Storm) have never been troubling to shoot. The first two have double stack/double feed proprietary magazines; the last used 92-series double/single.
At least partially due to your advice,(and, far more, my own PCC jones) I picked up a locked breech MPX. It was pricey, as were its proprietary double stack/double feed mags ([email protected]!). There truly wasn't a huge diff in perceived recoil, and my example wasn't reliable, even after a trip to the mother ship. It is now departed.
Based on empirical experience, I'm good with blowback PCCs. They kick more than a pistol round should, but not enough to bother me.
Moon
 

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On reflection, a great deal of the perceived recoil of blowback carbines depends on the shape of the comb of the stock. The aforementioned Colt and Beretta have a straight buttstock, which prevented cheek bite.
The Scorpion has a stock that slopes up to the receiver, and low mounted (tho' good) irons. If you climb the stock in classic 'nose to the charging handle' fashion, the stock slope can beat your cheek. I've since fitted a red dot on a riser; the more upright cheek weld solves the problem. If the irons were my 'all the time', I'd get folding AR sights to mount on the rail; they have a higher sightline.
Moon
 

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I'm hooked on the PCC's. The fun factor far outweighs anything else. I am now plotting on another upper that would be gas of some kind, have some of the parts needed on hand already. Below are the 2 that I am currently having lots of fun with. So far no problems, not any failures of any kind. I must say pretty good for the first 2 attempts. Both are set up to use HK MP5 magazines.

Top is 9mm, bottom is 7.65mm Luger. I've been using a 30 cal suppressor on the bottom one.


 

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Every time I see one of those “arm-brace pistols”, especially in 5.56 or heavier calibers, I have to chuckle at the whole SBR restriction thing.
 

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Every time I see one of those “arm-brace pistols”, especially in 5.56 or heavier calibers, I have to chuckle at the whole SBR restriction thing.
The brace is a classic 'work around', much like the infamous bump stocks, due to the '35 Firearms Act and full-auto bans.

Geo', I don't chuckle about it. It just flat ticks me off, jumping thru' more hoops than Shamoo, when it isn't disarming the bad guys. If you've never done an FFA piece, you owe it to yourself...assuming you enjoy banging your head on the wall. :D
Steve', a .30 Luger? Wow, just wow. What are you considering for something gas operated?
Moon
 

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Moon,
Yes, a 30 cal Luger. That is what I originally wanted to build and had gathered everything except for the barrel. Couldn't stand it any longer so I got a 10" 9mm barrel so I could at least test my build. The same day I finished it I found someone to make a 30 Luger barrel for me. Everything worked out perfect, I have 2 uppers with the one lower and not any problems.


My first AR was a DI converted to piston rifle. I really never liked it that much because of the size of the handguard that was required to fit over the piston assembly. I have disassembled that rifle with the intention of shaving down the piston block so that it would be easier to use with smaller handguards. After building the 9 and 30 I was wondering what I could do next so I started thinking about another bottleneck cartridge for an AR and the 357 Sig will be the one. I think it will work out with the piston, it's a little to much for blowback IMO.
 

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Discussion Starter #116
Damned if I know! :) You boys do like your thumpers.......

The availability of sub-sonic 308 Win ammo (at good prices) has me considering the POF Revolution 12.5" 308. This would have shooting dynamics similar to a 12.5 300 Blackout.


This would make a 308 suppressor swappable with my new AR-10 (POF P308 SPR), and would take the same mags as the big brother (I have 11 more Magpul Gen M3 20rd mags arriving Monday).


If purchased, I doubt it would ever see "full load" .308Win.
 

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Discussion Starter #118
Been awake for ~ 3hrs today, I've already heard THREE references on the new about today being 4-20, and how that signifies getting high.


Yet yesterday, NOT A WORD about the significance of 4-19.


I'll let Frank D (president of a company I support) spell it out for those wondering about 4-19......




Those who don't learn from the past, are doomed to relive it.
 

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Discussion Starter #119
Every time I see one of those “arm-brace pistols”, especially in 5.56 or heavier calibers, I have to chuckle at the whole SBR restriction thing.

Hahaha, so true.


Be sure you call the local PD, let them know you're planning on going out to the park, and NOT breaking the law......




Good thing these 5 LEOs had Google search handy, he may have been arrested!
 

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Welp, mainly I laugh because of the total impracticality of such massive “pistols” anchored to an arm, to say nothing of lights, scopes, etc. hanging off them. In other words, to use them “legally” is nearly impossible, and to use them “practically” also means shouldering them, which is of course illegal. Win-win!
 
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