Non-Walther pistols and my LGS.....

1233 Views 16 Replies 10 Participants Last post by balance, Aug 18, 2018

PPS1980

Discussion Starter · Aug 16, 2018 (Edited)

Finally got to the LGS without anyone with me for training (I love training my friends and family but it had been weeks since I got to the LGS by myself for some range time of my own and time to sit and shoot the **** with the guys).

They had a whole new batch of pistols in and the manager that handles ordering was there and wanted me to try out a few. He just got himself a compact CZ that was smooth as butter and very nice. He walked me through all the CZs in stock and I was shocked by a couple of things. First, the 75s had outstanding factory triggers - really smooth, not stacking, crisp break, excellent. The "Omega" triggers were terrible. Gritty, stacked, mushy break, and they are supposedly all that. After handling 8-10 CZs I came to the conclusion that if its a CZ and metal with a hammer its a very nice weapon but if its plastic with a striker its a POS.

Chatted with the LGS guys and they said all striker fired polymer weapons are compromises and the CZ triggers were among the best. Unloaded my P99AS and told them to compare. They said it was like the Canik, and of course I laughed and said - yeah, it ought to be as the Canik started off as a direct 1:1 copy of the P99. Anyway, I think I educated them about how good a striker can be. Obviously my LGS is not a Walther place as there are no PPQs in the cases. I know, but I like the range and the guys and hopefully there will start to be some Walther PPQs.

Oh, the "reason" given for no Walthers was that the PPKs were junk and jammed (no argument from me- mine was a DOG) and the 22LR models and CCP were always coming back. I tried to explain "real" Walther vs Umarex to them.

Anyway, tried out a Hudson (unimpressed), tried out a couple CZs (Metal is great), tried out a 50cal Desert Eagle (over rated and not that much to handle IMHO), and a S&W in 50 (MUCH more of a handful than the DE). But, once again came back around to my conclusion that for a polymer pistol you can not find better than the P99AS.

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Jimmo952

· #2 · Aug 16, 2018

PPS1980 said:
Finally got to the LGS without anyone with me for training (I love training my friends and family but it had been weeks since I got to the LGS by myself for some range time of my own and time to sit and shoot the **** with the guys).

They had a whole new batch of pistols in and the manager that handles ordering was there and wanted me to try out a few. He just got himself a compact CZ that was smooth as butter and very nice. He walked me through all the CZs in stock and I was shocked by a couple of things. First, the 75s had outstanding factory triggers - really smooth, not stacking, crisp break, excellent. The "Omega" triggers were terrible. Gritty, stacked, mushy break, and they are supposedly all that. After handling 8-10 CZs I came to the conclusion that if its a CZ and metal with a hammer its a very nice weapon but if its plastic with a striker its a POS.

Chatted with the LGS guys and they said all striker fired polymer weapons are compromises and the CZ triggers were among the best. Unloaded my P99AS and told them to compare. They said it was like the Canik, and of course I laughed and said - yeah, it ought to be as the Canik started off as a direct 1:1 copy of the P99. Anyway, I think I educated them about how good a striker can be. Obviously my LGS is not a Walther place as there are no PPQs in the cases. I know, but I like the range and the guys and hopefully there will start to be some Walther PPQs.

Oh, the "reason" given for no Walthers was that the PPKs were junk and jammed (no argument from me- mine was a DOG) and the 22LR models and CCP were always coming back. I tried to explain "real" Walther vs Umarex to them.

Anyway, tried out a Hudson (unimpressed), tried out a couple CZs (Metal is great), tried out a 50cal Desert Eagle (over rated and not that much to handle IMHO), and a S&W in 50 (MUCH more of a handful than the DE). But, once again came back around to my conclusion that for a polymer pistol you can not find better than the P99AS.

Good points. You bring up a frustration I think a lot of us share.

Umarex bought Walther in part I'm sure, to be able to leverage the Walther name to help sell their own products. What's happened though In reality is the Walther brand has been cheapened due to the subpar products that now carry the Walther name.

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WiseguyDS

· #3 · Aug 16, 2018

Good write up. I sold my CZ 75B compact to a deputy coroner out in OH and frequently wonder if I should have. The trigger on that CZ was just as you described. Butter. The action was smooth. Such a soft-shooting piece. He was thrilled when he got it and took it out for a spin. He got back to me with a follow up report. I think if it was the model that had the decocker, I would have kept it. But it was just too hairy pulling the trigger and thumbing down the hammer.

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PPS1980

Discussion Starter · #4 · Aug 16, 2018

WiseguyDS said:
Good write up. I sold my CZ 75B compact to a deputy coroner out in OH and frequently wonder if I should have. The trigger on that CZ was just as you described. Butter. The action was smooth. Such a soft-shooting piece. He was thrilled when he got it and took it out for a spin. He got back to me with a follow up report. I think if it was the model that had the decocker, I would have kept it. But it was just too hairy pulling the trigger and thumbing down the hammer.

The manager at my LGS had the compact with the decocker. Nice setup. The decocker is part of why I carry the P99AS as my default EDC.

ActionExpress

· #5 · Aug 16, 2018

I don't know how many different CZ 75 variations I've had, but I can thank them for killing my interest in Sig products years ago. I've still got a 75B (stainless) 75 Single action only, love the SAO for just old fashioned plinking, and love the stainless because it's just cool to me.

I've had blued ones, black ones, shiny ones, and green ones. For what they cost and how they seem to constantly make a solid product year after year is impressive to me. The only model I don't care for are the compacts, they just don't shoot as well for me.

Plus, they make an excellent .22lr upper for the 75s. It's pricey, but it's well worth it if you shoot a lot.

I had a P99 for quite a while, it was a great gun - about the only Walther I'd still want. I feel like I need a nickel Beretta 85FS .380, but that's about it for the "other" brands.

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GeoNole94

· #6 · Aug 17, 2018

I agree with several points raised in the above posts. My $0.02s, FWIIW:

I have owned a few striker-fired polymers, including a PPQ and a P99 AS, but the only one that I own at present is the P99 Compact (a great gun), and I have no plans to add any others. I admit to looking at HKs from time to time, but something keeps holding me back despite HKs recent price drops. All of my other pistols, including two dozen or so Walthers, are hammer-fired, and all but a couple have been fitted with wood grips. Yep, virtually nothing in my safes but hammer, steel (+/- some aluminum), and wood.

Umarex has indeed cheapened the Walther brand, despite a few decent guns still coming out of Ulm. I guess the alternative was for Walther to die a slow financial death, but perhaps that would have been better in some ways.

CZ makes a fine hammer-fired pistol at a decent price (still), and I shoot my 75B as well as any gun that I own, and better than most. (Disclaimer, I am not a great shot, and I am getting progressively worse through time. Getting old is not for the faint of heart.) I was lucky enough to get my 75 in brushed stainless a few years ago. I don’t care much for the matte or highly polished stainless versions of the 75B, but the brushed stainless hits the sweet spot (for me, anyway). CZ only produced that finish for a short time, so I guess that it wasn’t a good seller.

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Jimbo80

· #7 · Aug 17, 2018

Geo and I have the same taste in pistols. I am not a big fan of poly strikers. My P99C AS is all I need and then some. I sold my PPQ because of it.

While I don't personally own a CZ75 I do shoot them regularly and they are superb pistols. We just got a Shadow II in the shop and it is freakin' gorgeous. They are dollar for dollar a lot better buy than a lot of pistols.

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GeoNole94

· #8 · Aug 17, 2018

Just curious, Jimbo, but what finish is the Shadow II that is in your shop? The Urban Grey caught my eye, but I wasn’t sure it was a very durable choice based on what I read.

ActionExpress

· #9 · Aug 17, 2018

I have the Shadow 2 "blue" which has a double coat of black polycoat on the frame and a nitron finish on the slide. I can tell the difference, the frame looks thicker. I think CZ uses a polycoat finish on all of their guns, I had a green polycoat P-01 for a few years that never showed any wear.

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UniversalExports

· #10 · Aug 17, 2018

I have very few polymer-frame pistols, and four are either P99s or variants (SW99 in .45 and a long-slide MR9). Those four are also my only striker-fired pistols; all others use hammers. As for the other polymer pistols: FNX-9, FNX-45, Ruger Mark III 22/45 Hunter, and a Colt Mustang Lite (XSP).

Quite simply, the P99 and variants are the only striker-fired pistols I've ever even considered purchasing, and that's because they act and feel like hammer-fired pistols. Nothing else even comes close.

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balance

· #11 · Aug 17, 2018

irst, the 75s had outstanding factory triggers - really smooth, not stacking, crisp break, excellent. The "Omega" triggers were terrible. Gritty, stacked, mushy break, and they are supposedly all that.

If the plan is to carry it cocked and locked, the Omega triggers may be better, being that in SA, they don't cam the hammer back anywhere near as much as the standard models.

My CZ 75b SA and CZ 85b had a trigger break that had so much trigger creep that it felt more like a short revolver trigger than an actual SA trigger.

Umarex has indeed cheapened the Walther brand, despite a few decent guns still coming out of Ulm. I guess the alternative was for Walther to die a slow financial death, but perhaps that would have been better in some ways.

With the way they shoot in my hands, I'd call them exceptional rather than decent. Without Umarex, we would have never had the P99. The P88 and earlier pistols don't interest me much in regards to pistols I would actually use as defensive pistols.

I think CZ uses a polycoat finish on all of their guns, I had a green polycoat P-01 for a few years that never showed any wear.

CZ's polycoat is, in my opinion, one of the best factory finishes available on pistols. I'd put it up there with the "glossy" finish Glock used to use on their older pistols. It is very resistant to things like holster wear.

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PPS1980

Discussion Starter · #12 · Aug 17, 2018

I have to tell you that I also carry the PPS when I need small 9mm and it is indeed more concealable than the P99c. I have never had a single problem with it but I find myself looking for reasons to carry the P99.

On the Omega trigger - not a Cond. 1 guy. Been there, done that, and if I were to do it again the 1911 is the way to go IMHO. The Omega triggers, yes plural, that I tried were uniformly bad triggers IMHO. It was very odd to me that the standard, metal hammer fired, CZ triggers were that much better. Given that CZ obviously a) knows what a good trigger is, b) knows how to consistently make them, and c) puts so much thought and attention to detail in their weapons it befuddles me how they can sell the Omega triggers with straight faces - they are that bad IMHO.

GeoNole94

· #13 · Aug 17, 2018

balance said:
With the way they shoot in my hands, I'd call them exceptional rather than decent. Without Umarex, we would have never had the P99. The P88 and earlier pistols don't interest me much in regards to pistols I would actually use as defensive pistols.

Welp, I did describe the P99 as a great gun, but point taken if anybody thought that I meant ‘decent’ as middling or derogatory. True that Umarex owned Walther when the P99, PPQ, and PPS were designed and produced, all out of Ulm, of course, and all are fine pistols. Still, they are striker-fired polymer, so take that however suits your needs and interests.

As for the P88 and earlier Walthers, we can agree to disagree. There are plenty of great Walthers, defensive and otherwise, pre-Umarex

Jimbo80

· #14 · Aug 18, 2018

GeoNole94 said:
Just curious, Jimbo, but what finish is the Shadow II that is in your shop? .

Black with Tactical Orange grips and magwell. It's already sold.

halfmoonclip

· #15 · Aug 18, 2018

Like the feel of a CZ; the double action trigger is too long a reach for me. For defensive use, I'm not a fan of double/single anyway; if I'm scared enough to point a gun at someone, simpler is better. YMMV
Moon

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Mighty_Barbell

· #16 · Aug 18, 2018

I was starting to think there was something wrong with me since LGS don’t ever have p99s or even consider getting them. They always have pps and maybe a couple ppqs but never p99s. I got so tired of the limited holster options (among other things) for p99s that I went and bought a Glock 43. Great concealment but it feels like I got it from the dollar tree. Plastic magazine, cheap feeling plastic grip. I held my P99c after buying the 43 and was able to truly appreciate how well crafted that firearm is.

I don’t regret getting the 43 because if something happens to it I won’t be sad at all but compared to the P99c it is literally a toy.

All it did was reaffirm how right I was to get my ppq and P99c first.

Although, it can be disappointing when you start out with the best. Where else do you go from there? It’s like people who peak in high school.

balance

· #17 · Aug 18, 2018

There are plenty of great Walthers, defensive and otherwise, pre-Umarex

I used to have a P5 that I liked. It was a good pistol that I liked to shoot, but the (at the time) $90 mags and the 8rd capacity didn't do much for me in regards to wanting to carry it or use it as a defensive pistol.

I think all of the manufacturers went down in quality to compete on price, but pistols have been getting more reliable, and more durable as time passes, and these are more important to me in a defensive pistol than perceived workmanship. Compare an H&K P7 to a USP. Compare a Sig P210 with a P226. Compare a P88 to a P99. Etc.

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