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The thumb safety would be an outright deal breaker for me in regard to ever considering it as a carry choice.
 

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The thumb safety would be an outright deal breaker for me in regard to ever considering it as a carry choice.

Yep - but considering the low entry concealed carry market price point they are catering to, I can imagine a lot of people are buying their first gun based on price and "having a safety"


There are a lot of points I disagree with in that mindset, but its the market that this pistol caters to.


Someone who carries a Shield, Glock 42/43, PPS, etc, will in no way shape or form be buying this pistol.
 

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Yep - but considering the low entry concealed carry market price point they are catering to, I can imagine a lot of people are buying their first gun based on price and "having a safety"


There are a lot of points I disagree with in that mindset, but its the market that this pistol caters to.


Someone who carries a Shield, Glock 42/43, PPS, etc, will in no way shape or form be buying this pistol.
Yep / yep & yep to your comments as well.

Anyone that's ever taken a good multi-day professional handgun class can probably attest to how much more of a PITA it is to try and employ anything with a manual safety in any sort of real-ish world scenario & likewise, getting said type pistol back to 'safe' condition after the drill. To each his/her own but no way for this guy.
 

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Yep / yep & yep to your comments as well.

Anyone that's ever taken a good multi-day professional handgun class can probably attest to how much more of a PITA it is to try and employ anything with a manual safety in any sort of real-ish world scenario & likewise, getting said type pistol back to 'safe' condition after the drill. To each his/her own but no way for this guy.

If I had a dollar for every person I've met or know who is not an actual shooter, doesn't train or doesn't take classes, and only bought one cheap pistol to carry the 1-2 times a year they actually will, and it "had to have a safety" because it made them "feel better in case the kids/grandkids found it" I'd be retiring.


My in-laws neighbor has a Ruger LCP9 and he took it shooting with us - After 3 magazines it "jammed up" and hes fumbling on the firing line, I didn't know what the hell was going on, he flicked the safety on with his grip - he didn't even realize it was an LCP9s - Shook my head hard on that one. Another pistol I wouldn't waste my money on.
 

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If I had a dollar for every person I've met or know who is not an actual shooter, doesn't train or doesn't take classes, and only bought one cheap pistol to carry the 1-2 times a year they actually will, and it "had to have a safety" because it made them "feel better in case the kids/grandkids found it" I'd be retiring.


My in-laws neighbor has a Ruger LCP9 and he took it shooting with us - After 3 magazines it "jammed up" and hes fumbling on the firing line, I didn't know what the hell was going on, he flicked the safety on with his grip - he didn't even realize it was an LCP9s - Shook my head hard on that one. Another pistol I wouldn't waste my money on.
No doubt.

The last handgun class I attended was chock full of people with firearms equipped with either or both manual safeties & decockers. 1911 variants, a CCP, & a couple of Beretta 92FS's etc. With 1 exception (a seasoned pro running a 92FS who'd been to a lot of classes over the years) these were the types of firearms that people who were constantly having some sort of issue with what they were running... to include excessive fumbling that caused a bunch of safety violations. If it wasn't for nearly getting muzzle swept a few times with these fumbling manual safety folks it would've been a great day of laughing at people having brain-fades induced by process overload (1 or 2 too many extra instruction procedures to follow that the rest of us didn't have to mess with). It's a real eye-opener for anyone that's never had a chance to witness it in person.
 

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No doubt.

The last handgun class I attended was chock full of people with firearms equipped with either or both manual safeties & decockers. 1911 variants, a CCP, & a couple of Beretta 92FS's etc. With 1 exception (a seasoned pro running a 92FS who'd been to a lot of classes over the years) these were the types of firearms that people who were constantly having some sort of issue with what they were running... to include excessive fumbling that caused a bunch of safety violations. If it wasn't for nearly getting muzzle swept a few times with these fumbling manual safety folks it would've been a great day of laughing at people having brain-fades induced by process overload (1 or 2 too many extra instruction procedures to follow that the rest of us didn't have to mess with). It's a real eye-opener for anyone that's never had a chance to witness it in person.



Amen. Glad someone else gets it. I've been there too and let me tell you what I just think to myself on a bright sunny day at an outdoor range shooting at targets that don't move with other like minded folk around you, WHAT ON GODS GREEN EARTH ARE YOU GOING TO DO WHEN ITS DARK AND YOU NEED TO SAVE YOURS AND SOMEONE ELSES A$$ IN A FRACTION OF THE TIME


:)
 

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WHAT ON GODS GREEN EARTH ARE YOU GOING TO DO WHEN ITS DARK AND YOU NEED TO SAVE YOURS AND SOMEONE ELSES A$$ IN A FRACTION OF THE TIME


:)
That's easy. And here's the instructions for the people you referenced.

Pull your own finger....that takes care of the brain fart, which relieves pressure on the brain. Call 911. Now, bend over, put your head between your legs and kiss your @$$ good bye.
 

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Why do people even go to ranges to practice?

Paper doesn't shoot back, nor does it kick your door in at 3 Am and try to violate your home....

If you're going to carry, you'd damned well better be able to use it properly, effectively, and safely. Shooting JUST paper trains one in none of those things.

I personally don't care for manual safeties, but if one trains with them, then so be it. I'm used to no safety, and I'm careful when holstering, in addition my holsters cover all of the trigger guard area.

I am more than a little safety conscious, having been nearly shot as a teen by a dumbass who dropped a loaded .30-30 with the hammer down.

I put a greater priority on gun handling ability rather than a little button or lever that, as mentioned above, is forgotten, misused, or not used at all.

I mean hell, some people are too lazy to put on a clean shirt before going to the store, to say nothing of being able to safely handle a deadly object.

Ughh, pisses me off.

Anyone here been shot at in a civilian environment? It's not fun, no matter if it's intentional or simply due to ignorance or complacency.

Train, and train some more. I need to, as much as anyone else.
 

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Why do people even go to ranges to practice?

Paper doesn't shoot back, nor does it kick your door in at 3 Am and try to violate your home....

If you're going to carry, you'd damned well better be able to use it properly, effectively, and safely. Shooting JUST paper trains one in none of those things.
So do you attend force on force exercises every week instead? I understand the limitations of paper, but it's better than nothing, especially if you understand the difference between drills and scenarios, and even more importantly between drills and casual plinking.
 

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Why do people even go to ranges to practice?
My .02:

#1 Because the vast majority of people that shoot don't live in rural environments where they can just go outside close by & shoot, let alone be able to shoot on their own property. Make no mistake, there's a serious lack of viable training places in this country. The vast majority of ranges that I've seen don't even let you practice your draw stroke, let alone let you draw & fire.

#2 I would lay $ that most gun owners only shoot once or twice a year (at best) & that coupled with point #1 above = why they shoot at paper at a muni or commercial shooting range. Hell from what I've seen is that a high % of cops (at least in metro areas) don't shoot more than the average gun owner does. Case in point: Take a look at the video of the Vegas Metro run & gun chase in July. Talk about gun handling DERP by a professional cop.

#3 Even the small percentage of shooters who do take the initiative to attend advanced training classes (& in the context of this convo CCW classes don't count as trng to me), a high % of that training is typically conducted on 'firing lines' shooting at paper along side your other classmates. Unless you can afford to shell out big $$ for private 1-on-1 instruction you're going to be spending a significant amt of time on a traditional range....just the way it is.

I have the luxury of living close by to 1 of the premier firearms training places in the U.S. (if not the world) & my experience with how your time as a student gets divided up in a class is something like this (time spent listed below from largest to smallest):

- On the line demos & lectures by instructor(s)
- On the line drills: Drawing, drawing/firing @ paper along side other students etc
- Classroom presentations
- Some type of advanced shooting drills (shoot house time etc).

ETA: There's a lot of training people can do via dry practice, a lot of people don't process this option. As an urbanite who lives near indoor & out ranges that don't allow draw & fire (let alone exercising of any tactics), I supplement my training w/dry fire drills.
 

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I’m fortunate too...our range has a full tactical range and you are expected to have already passed their Holster qualification course first...where you learn to draw and fire strong and weak hand and so on.

I still shoot paper for practice and fun, but take advantage of the tactical range when I can.
 

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I don't disagree with with the basic point being made by Thunderbird. Keep in mind people collect and shoot guns for a variety of reasons though. Some people are serious self defense oriented and others might be sport shooters or just collectors. Some people view and buy guns they view as the best tools for self defense. Other people buy vintage PPKs or revolvers because they get some enjoyment from just owning or plinking with them. I could go on but you get the idea.

On this forum we have owners and enthuisist of all stripes and experience levels. There is room for all of them.
 

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On this forum we have owners and enthuisist of all stripes and experience levels. There is room for all of them.
Evidently not.

If you’re going to be understanding and inclusive rather than questioning the intelligence of others and their motivations for enjoyment of different guns for different reasons...we’re going to have to ask you to leave.
 

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Paper target shooting is not the best training for self-defense shooting preparation. But, it is way better than not doing it - and is the only choice for many folks (especially those that live in urban areas). If someone can only shoot at paper targets at a range, he or she can at least get some very practical experience there.


1. They can become very proficient at least with loading their firearm, chambering a round, and shooting accurately at most self-defense distances.
2. They can practice shooting with just one hand, both weak hand only and strong hand only, and learn to be accurate with either hand.
3. They can practice point shooting without using their sites for very close distances (7 yards or less) that reflect most self-defense shooting distances.
4. They can dry-fire practice at home which is always very useful.
5. They can read and get legally prepared for having to use deadly force.
6. They can also get mentally prepared by going over various scenarios in their mind over and over and how to react to those different scenarios.
7. They can practice being constantly alert wherever they are and always scanning their areas for signs of potential problems.


No, that does not equal "tactical" training that one can get through private instruction or even public tactical shooting classes at dedicated gun teaching schools. But, it is most assuredly better than buying a gun and loading it, tossing it in a drawer, and never shooting it with live ammunition. Each person can maximize what they can achieve given their own set of circumstances (geographical, financial, etc.). I would say that even many tactically trained pistol shooters are nothing if they don't have mental preparation that must be constant and done daily. I would rather someone does the best he or she can in their given shoes, then do nothing to train and be ready.
 

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Evidently not.

If you’re going to be understanding and inclusive rather than questioning the intelligence of others and their motivations for enjoyment of different guns for different reasons...we’re going to have to ask you to leave.
Not sure I made my point. What I was trying to say is the opposite of how you took it.

I was not questioning anyone's intelligence or motivations for enjoying certain firearms. Quite the opposite.
 
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