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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Here is another experiment. Many .22 pistols and rifles have an extractor that pivots very near the nose of the part. The P22 does not. It has a long tail that is pressed outward by a small spring and a pivot point that is a fairly long way from the nose (extractor tip) of the part. This causes the part to move in and out with a larger radius rather than pivot a bit rearward as it clamps onto the rim of a .22 case as shorter pivot models do. So what would happen if the retaining/pivot pin were to be moved forward, shortening the pivot arch of the nose while providing more leverage for the spring to press the nose in against the case.

Over the years there has been much discussion regarding poor extraction and poor/inconsistent ejection direction of hot spent cases. Over the years I have played around with peening the extractor tip rearward (worked well - not possible with the new style part), I've filled the existing pivot pin hole with JB Weld and drilled a new hole to cause the part to fit slightly rearward of the stock set up in order to close the gap between the extractor tip and the rim of a case ( improved function considerably), filed entirely new extractors, called Nic at VQ and asked if they would make an extractor for us (they did) and sent all my suggested improvements to Germany so they could make a better fitting extractor (they did) but none of them are really great, nothing like what you would find on a .22 PP or a Ruger .22 or even some of the Walther made pistols in .22 for S&W. The P22 just did not get the best design in my opinion.

OK, rim thicknesses vary I'm told and I've measured some myself and yes they do....still...this doesn't seem to bother some of the pistols/rifles mentioned above. Their extractors fit tightly against the rim and they eject consistently. and one of the things I've always been interested in was Walther shortening the forward pivot radius......so, after all these years I began to wonder if it was possible, could I modify and existing breech block, slide hole and extractor? Obviously I can modify this but at what cost, degree of difficulty and will it work better. Also, as MGMike said....dont' assume every P22 measures precisely the same with regard to the breech block location, chamber dimension and extractor cut. That I needed to be very careful not to pinch the rim of a rimfire cartridge, not cause binding, out of battery ignition or induce slam fire. Yep, I'll agree with all of that.

So the first step is to remove the extractor spring and take a close look at the exact movement of the stock system. In other words....how far does the nose reach in, how far does it pivot out and what is the gap between the face of the tip and the face of the breech block. Then determine if there is a simple way to add another retaining pin slot to the right side of the breech block and in a position that does not interfere with the function of anything while still allowing the extractor to move in and out as rounds are chambered and the slide closes. If so, then it should be possible to slightly adjust the position of a new pivot hole so that the entire extractor sits just a small amount of distance more rearward. Can it be done???? I think I will see. 1917



Here is a second generation breech block. Forget all the screws that was for another project and has nothing to do with this thread. Note the red arrow pointing to the location of a cutout for the stock extractor retaining/pivot pin. I began to wonder could I install another cutout say 3/16" forward of the stock one. Then drill a new pivot hole in a stock extractor to align with the new pin location. Yes I can and it doesn't appear to interfere with anything. This might also allow me to move the extractor hole a few additional thousandths forward so that the entire extractor will sit rearward a bit allowing me to adjust it for optimal fitment against the rim of a case.



Here is how a .22 rim sits on the breech face of a P22. Note the thickness of the rim in relation to the breech face cut out.



Above is a close up of a chambered round, breech block against the rear of the chamber and what the extractor sees. The red line is the face of the rim. It is essential that the rear face of the extractor tip move far enough forward so that it will catch the rim and extract it.
As can be seen above the extractor on my pistol reaches as far forward as the white line. Or a bit more than necessary. The green line is the center of the stock retaining pin location. I am considering moving it forward to the black line. This will require a new cutout in the breech block, a new hole in the slide and a new hole through the extractor. While at it I will move the hole in the extractor just a bit forward so that the entire extractor will sit rearward a bit. But....the extractor must still pivot enough to allow a round to slide up the face of the breech block, move inward enough to grasp the round and not bind feeding in any way. Can it be done? Will it improve manual extraction and create a more consistent ejection direction? I'll find out soon enough I guess. P22 modification number 86....or so.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
93051


What an original P22 extractor looked like in case anyone has forgotten. Huge gap between the extractor hook and front of a rim. Very inconsistent ejection patterns.

93052


How a 2020 extractor fits against a cartridge as viewed from the top. Note small gap between breech block and forward end of the extractor. It will be important for a modified extractor to be able to reach in far enough to engage the rim without bottoming against the breech block.
93054


In the above photo a stock extractor has been retracted the maximum amount the design will allow. Note that the tip moves outward enough to entirely clear the rim. I will probably need to maintain a similar clearance when the pivot hole is moved forward.


93053


In this photo the tip of the extractor is resting against the case. It really does not need to reach in any further.....or does it. Note that I have centered the round on the breech face with a little monkey glue but the breech face is open and a round does not necessarily stay in position on the face as it is blown out of the chamber. Should the case slip a bit to the left (down), is additional reach of benefit??? I don't know. The red lines show that there is still a gap between the breech block and the extractor. In other words, the extractor has not bottomed out and is being held in position by the side of the case.

My idea here is to move the extractor pivot hole forward to the yellow dot. In order to still allow the part to have enough room for pivoting properly I think it would be of benefit to lower the hole ( in the extractor only) so that the extractor sits just a bit further away from the breech block. With the pivot hole moved forward, the hook will angle in more and the tail will be lifted higher. Will the small spring still be captive? Will a small notch be necessary on the tail of the extractor to retain it? I also want to move the new pivot hole slightly forward on the extractor so that it will sit slightly rearward when installed and eliminate the gap the presently exists. Early tests have shown that the smaller the gap the more consistent ejection is. Wear marks on the extractor cut out show that the tip of the extractor hook is reaching a bit further than is necessary. So, moving it rearward should work fine and if too much then I can file the tip to fit. During all of this the extractor cannot bind the rim of a round that is being slide into position. To alleviate that in the past I have undercut the bottom of the extractor tip to allow the rim more space to slide up while not totally eliminating the tighter fitment of the hook against the rim.

Now to do some measuring and drilling. 1917
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
I drilled a 5/64" hole in an extractor......uh, it must have been one I made. A genuine, new Walther extractor has all my drill bits wobbling around on the surface like a drunk or a spinning top even though I've shortened the length in a drill press. I have everything marked precisely.....now to figure out how to drill the new hole. Carbide won't go through it. I need real machine shop drill bits.... 1917
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Does anyone have any ideas on how to drill a 5/64" hole in one of these new extractors? I've worn out two of the hardest bits I can find....barely an indentation. I expect the extractor is MIM'd and it is hard. The only diamond bits I've found are for a Dremel and there is no grit on the nose....so, those won't bite either. 1917
 

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Does anyone have any ideas on how to drill a 5/64" hole in one of these new extractors? I've worn out two of the hardest bits I can find....barely an indentation. I expect the extractor is MIM'd and it is hard. The only diamond bits I've found are for a Dremel and there is no grit on the nose....so, those won't bite either. 1917
You might try one of these options...
1. McMaster-Carr P/N 3162A12 diamond coated drill but cost $31.67 ea!!!
2. Or try using some abrasive grit slurry under your current drill bit head and run the drill in reverse and slowly grind a hole...
3. Also maybe try an end mill instead of a drill so it wont walk and you can exert a little more pressure but these are brittle so go verrrry slow feed rate and rigid setup. McMaster-Carr P/N 8889A142, cost is high..$20.03 ea!!!
 

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You might try one of these options...
1. McMaster-Carr P/N 3162A12 diamond coated drill but cost $31.67 ea!!!
2. Or try using some abrasive grit slurry under your current drill bit head and run the drill in reverse and slowly grind a hole...
3. Also maybe try an end mill instead of a drill so it wont walk and you can exert a little more pressure but these are brittle so go verrrry slow feed rate and rigid setup. McMaster-Carr P/N 8889A142, cost is high..$20.03 ea!!!
If you try #1 or #3 be sure to use some oil or water-based coolant so the bit cutting edges don’t get too hot.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I tried the toughest bits I could find. None of the ones you recommended. They began to cut, then dulled. I did not use oil or water but did go very slow. Enough of a hole was cut to stabilize a bit from walking. I am not a machinist and don't know what would be the the proper approach to drilling some hard steel. Perhaps my drill speed is too high also. Slow or fast, which is better? I'm not sure the bit got hot...it didn't last long enough to. I would say they barely cut for five seconds at most. The depth of the cut so far is perhaps 0.010". It is where I want it.. Abrasive grit slurry....valve lapping compound? I'll see if I can track down some McMaster-Carr bits. Thanks for the info. Wonder what the Rockwell hardness of the extractors is? 1917
 

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I was able to drill through hardened steel magazine dimples using a carbide tipped stone/tile bit i picked up at home deplowes (can't remember). It went through both sides of 4 mags in about 30 seconds per hole and cut the last one as well as the first. All after I burnt through a few other specialty drill bits without breaking the surface. Unfortunately I had no luck searching for a 5/64 in that configuration. So a carbide end mill may be the other option.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Dremel makes two bits that are the right size. Diamond ball and diamond bit of some shape....not a regular drill bit. I have another 4x tough bit that I am going to try very slowly and with oil. If that doesn't work will try the ball, if that doesn't work the diamond drill....all in a drill press, not in a Dremel. I'm doubting that I can drill an accurately sized hole with a masonry/tile/glass bit. An earlier 4x tough DeWalt began cutting but dulled quickly. Oil and very slow going this try. 1917
 

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Discussion Starter #10
93323


Arnsburg ten, 1917 zero. Six dull drill bits, two dull cobalt 4x tough bits dull, two Dremel diamond drill bits dulled. Progress....20% perhaps. How'd they get that hole in there? Molded when MIM'd, punched...something else. Have tried smaller bits to try to get a hole started. Ten minutes of a diamond bit spinning on it. Guess I will give up on this until I find something that will drill through this stuff. Perhaps a VQ extractor isn't as hard. 1917
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I think I will get a masonry bit and see if it will drill through an old extractor. The problem here is that the drill needs to be very small, 5/64" or what is that....2mm? Not sure there are any masonry bits that small. Way back, I ground out the existing hole so that the part would sit rearward about 0.015" and filled in the remaining part of the existing hole with JB Weld. That worked well. There isn't really that much stress on the part but the extractor edge needs to remain sharp and precisely shaped. If rounded off it won't grasp a rim very well.....not that it does a great job stock. I tested the hardness of these years ago....don't have access to that piece of equipment anymore. They also had a 1,000,000 frame per second camera....wouldn't let me play with it though.. This was back in '05 or '06. Probably can't find a machine shop that would be interested in this small project. 1917
 

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Carbide tipped mason bit in 5/64 seems not to be a thing. I think the two linked below would be my next best options.

drillsandcutters.com/5-64-solid-carbide-drill-bit/

mscdirect dotcom /product/details/61612198
 

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Discussion Starter #13
You are correct. 5/64 is small...too small for proper sharpening on some of the cheaper bits I expect. In visiting some of the machine shop forums the carbide bits are supposed to be good to Rockwell hardness of 50. I'm not sure what these extractors rate...but they are hard. Some members in discussing small bits and hardened steel say to buy several as it generally takes a lot of pressure to make them cut and you can easily snap them . There is a lot to learn about a lot of things....you learn it all...then you die. Seems a waste unless you pass it on. 1917
 

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Discussion Starter #14
The existing hole might be part of the molding process, might be edm cut. Watched a milling machine cut into hardened steel. Teeth only on the end of the bit....probably won't work on a bit this small. I have a dental checkup Wednesday. I think I will see what bits my dentist might have. Generally Dremel stuff is good but their diamond bits and ball head wouldn't do much of anything. There just isn't much diamond on the tip of the bit. 1917
 

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Discussion Starter #15
OK, was going through my parts bags yesterday and there is an extractor in there with a nice, neat hole I drilled. It is an original one. Somewhere along the line Walther made the things tough as diamond. I think I can do this experiment with an original extractor. 1917
 
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