Walther Forums banner

1 - 3 of 3 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,415 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Here is another experiment. Many .22 pistols and rifles have an extractor that pivots very near the nose of the part. The P22 does not. It has a long tail that is pressed outward by a small spring and a pivot point that is a fairly long way from the nose (extractor tip) of the part. This causes the part to move in and out with a larger radius rather than pivot a bit rearward as it clamps onto the rim of a .22 case as shorter pivot models do. So what would happen if the retaining/pivot pin were to be moved forward, shortening the pivot arch of the nose while providing more leverage for the spring to press the nose in against the case.

Over the years there has been much discussion regarding poor extraction and poor/inconsistent ejection direction of hot spent cases. Over the years I have played around with peening the extractor tip rearward (worked well - not possible with the new style part), I've filled the existing pivot pin hole with JB Weld and drilled a new hole to cause the part to fit slightly rearward of the stock set up in order to close the gap between the extractor tip and the rim of a case ( improved function considerably), filed entirely new extractors, called Nic at VQ and asked if they would make an extractor for us (they did) and sent all my suggested improvements to Germany so they could make a better fitting extractor (they did) but none of them are really great, nothing like what you would find on a .22 PP or a Ruger .22 or even some of the Walther made pistols in .22 for S&W. The P22 just did not get the best design in my opinion.

OK, rim thicknesses vary I'm told and I've measured some myself and yes they do....still...this doesn't seem to bother some of the pistols/rifles mentioned above. Their extractors fit tightly against the rim and they eject consistently. and one of the things I've always been interested in was Walther shortening the forward pivot radius......so, after all these years I began to wonder if it was possible, could I modify and existing breech block, slide hole and extractor? Obviously I can modify this but at what cost, degree of difficulty and will it work better. Also, as MGMike said....dont' assume every P22 measures precisely the same with regard to the breech block location, chamber dimension and extractor cut. That I needed to be very careful not to pinch the rim of a rimfire cartridge, not cause binding, out of battery ignition or induce slam fire. Yep, I'll agree with all of that.

So the first step is to remove the extractor spring and take a close look at the exact movement of the stock system. In other words....how far does the nose reach in, how far does it pivot out and what is the gap between the face of the tip and the face of the breech block. Then determine if there is a simple way to add another retaining pin slot to the right side of the breech block and in a position that does not interfere with the function of anything while still allowing the extractor to move in and out as rounds are chambered and the slide closes. If so, then it should be possible to slightly adjust the position of a new pivot hole so that the entire extractor sits just a small amount of distance more rearward. Can it be done???? I think I will see. 1917



Here is a second generation breech block. Forget all the screws that was for another project and has nothing to do with this thread. Note the red arrow pointing to the location of a cutout for the stock extractor retaining/pivot pin. I began to wonder could I install another cutout say 3/16" forward of the stock one. Then drill a new pivot hole in a stock extractor to align with the new pin location. Yes I can and it doesn't appear to interfere with anything. This might also allow me to move the extractor hole a few additional thousandths forward so that the entire extractor will sit rearward a bit allowing me to adjust it for optimal fitment against the rim of a case.



Here is how a .22 rim sits on the breech face of a P22. Note the thickness of the rim in relation to the breech face cut out.



Above is a close up of a chambered round, breech block against the rear of the chamber and what the extractor sees. The red line is the face of the rim. It is essential that the rear face of the extractor tip move far enough forward so that it will catch the rim and extract it.
As can be seen above the extractor on my pistol reaches as far forward as the white line. Or a bit more than necessary. The green line is the center of the stock retaining pin location. I am considering moving it forward to the black line. This will require a new cutout in the breech block, a new hole in the slide and a new hole through the extractor. While at it I will move the hole in the extractor just a bit forward so that the entire extractor will sit rearward a bit. But....the extractor must still pivot enough to allow a round to slide up the face of the breech block, move inward enough to grasp the round and not bind feeding in any way. Can it be done? Will it improve manual extraction and create a more consistent ejection direction? I'll find out soon enough I guess. P22 modification number 86....or so.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,415 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
93051


What an original P22 extractor looked like in case anyone has forgotten. Huge gap between the extractor hook and front of a rim. Very inconsistent ejection patterns.

93052


How a 2020 extractor fits against a cartridge as viewed from the top. Note small gap between breech block and forward end of the extractor. It will be important for a modified extractor to be able to reach in far enough to engage the rim without bottoming against the breech block.
93054


In the above photo a stock extractor has been retracted the maximum amount the design will allow. Note that the tip moves outward enough to entirely clear the rim. I will probably need to maintain a similar clearance when the pivot hole is moved forward.


93053


In this photo the tip of the extractor is resting against the case. It really does not need to reach in any further.....or does it. Note that I have centered the round on the breech face with a little monkey glue but the breech face is open and a round does not necessarily stay in position on the face as it is blown out of the chamber. Should the case slip a bit to the left (down), is additional reach of benefit??? I don't know. The red lines show that there is still a gap between the breech block and the extractor. In other words, the extractor has not bottomed out and is being held in position by the side of the case.

My idea here is to move the extractor pivot hole forward to the yellow dot. In order to still allow the part to have enough room for pivoting properly I think it would be of benefit to lower the hole ( in the extractor only) so that the extractor sits just a bit further away from the breech block. With the pivot hole moved forward, the hook will angle in more and the tail will be lifted higher. Will the small spring still be captive? Will a small notch be necessary on the tail of the extractor to retain it? I also want to move the new pivot hole slightly forward on the extractor so that it will sit slightly rearward when installed and eliminate the gap the presently exists. Early tests have shown that the smaller the gap the more consistent ejection is. Wear marks on the extractor cut out show that the tip of the extractor hook is reaching a bit further than is necessary. So, moving it rearward should work fine and if too much then I can file the tip to fit. During all of this the extractor cannot bind the rim of a round that is being slide into position. To alleviate that in the past I have undercut the bottom of the extractor tip to allow the rim more space to slide up while not totally eliminating the tighter fitment of the hook against the rim.

Now to do some measuring and drilling. 1917
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,415 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
I drilled a 7/64" hole in an extractor......uh, it must have been one I made. A genuine, new Walther extractor has all my drill bits wobbling around on the surface like a drunk or a spinning top even though I've shortened the length in a drill press. I have everything marked precisely.....now to figure out how to drill the new hole. Carbide won't go through it. I need real machine shop drill bits.... 1917
 
1 - 3 of 3 Posts
Top