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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I don't own a PP series pistol and most likely will not own one soon unless one shows up at a LGS that I can fondle. I am not too keen on buying unseen and untouched. They do not seem to show up in my area very often.
In the meantime I am trying to learn all I can about the PP series pistols. Ninety percent of that education is derived from this forum.
I have read "the Manurhin myth" thread about four times and do understand how things were carried out between France and Germany post war. However, there are a couple of questions that I have about Pistols marked made in France by Manurhin.
For simplicity let's say model PP's in 7.65 only.

1) I see the proof marks of St. Etienne on some Manurhin pistols. Wouldn't this indicate that the pistol was entirely made in France and once the forgings supplied by Walther arrived from Germany the pistol or its components never saw German soil again?

2) The St Etienne proof I have seen is what appears to be the provisional proof for unfinished short barreled firearms. This is a simple crown shaped stamp accompanied by the wording " St Etienne". I have seen this "provisional" proof on the right hand side of the slide and on the barrel seen through the ejection port. Wouldn't there need to be a "definitive" proof mark for the finished pistol? i.e. the crossed branches with the crown placed in the V of the branches and the wording St Etienne?
3) A while ago I saw a Manurhin with the St Etienne provisional proof marks on the barrel and the slide as described in #2 above and the later used German Eagle ( couldn't really see the N ) on the left side of the frame? What would the story be with that mongrel?
Maybe someone put a French made and proofed slide and barrel on a German proofed frame?
4) I have also seen magazines marked Manurhin on one side and "made in France" on the other side. Thought I read that ALL magazine were made in Germany.

Thanks for any further information or clarification anyone can provide.
DD
 

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.....
1) I see the proof marks of St. Etienne on some Manurhin pistols. Wouldn't this indicate that the pistol was entirely made in France and once the forgings supplied by Walther arrived from Germany the pistol or its components never saw German soil again?

2) The St Etienne proof I have seen is what appears to be the provisional proof for unfinished short barreled firearms. This is a simple crown shaped stamp accompanied by the wording " St Etienne". I have seen this "provisional" proof on the right hand side of the slide and on the barrel seen through the ejection port. Wouldn't there need to be a "definitive" proof mark for the finished pistol?
DD
Let me address just a couple of your points. I’m sure others will be addressed.

Re 1) The PP series pistols were entirely made at Manurhin in France; there were no “forgings supplied by Walther”. Exceptions were the West Berlin P1’s.

Re 2) Where did you get the idea that the crown plus “St. Etienne” was in any way provisional? This was the final proof for st. Etienne-proofed pistols in the early to mid-1950s; at some point the name was left off and only the crest was stamped. Attached a typical 1955/56 Manurhin Bavarian police PP.
 

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Mine is exactly like Absalom's. 1957 and the bluing is rich beyond the ones they sent to Ulm for their finals in the white. So what if it's Manurhin stamped. St.E stamps are the same and same ByP stamp to boot.
They sure took pride around that era and if you are lucky enough to obtain one that was carried more than shot, and the person took pride taking care of it, then you have a life long winner. Talk about a shooter and a real BBQ brag pistol.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Absalom,
Thank you for your reply.

1)When I started this thread I had just re read "the Manurhin myth" thread and I took the word "forgings" from that thread.
"(from special forgings specified by Walther and supplied from Germany, it is worth noting)"
Perhaps it was a poor choice of words on my part and I should have said "raw steel" or something similar.

2) http://www.nramuseum.org/media/940944/proofmarks.pdf
Four pages down #2406 French Proof marks
If the proof marks you show are final definitive proof marks then I can understand why they would appear on the slide and barrel of a completely French made firearm.
Perhaps I was victim to believing something I found on the Internet.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Mine is exactly like Absalom's. 1957 and the bluing is rich beyond the ones they sent to Ulm for their finals in the white. So what if it's Manurhin stamped. St.E stamps are the same and same ByP stamp to boot.
They sure took pride around that era and if you are lucky enough to obtain one that was carried more than shot, and the person took pride taking care of it, then you have a life long winner. Talk about a shooter and a real BBQ brag pistol.
If I am lucky enough to find a PP someday it is a shooter that I am looking for.
I have no aversion to a Manurhin pistol, none at all. I have a Beretta made in 1951 and it exemplifies what you say about pride during that era.
So these pistols were manufactured entirely in France with material specified by Walther from Germany?
Do your magazines say "Manurhin" on one side and "made in France on the other side?
In addition to the slide and barrel is there a French proof mark on the frame?
Do you have any German markings on the pistol anywhere?
 

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... once the forgings supplied by Walther arrived from Germany the pistol or its components never saw German soil again?
The statement is correct.

Unless, of course, the finished gun found its way to Germany.

Walther supplied drawings not only for the finished components, but for the raw forgings from which they were machined. If I recall correctly, there were 9 parts made from forgings, all of which were drop-forged to Walther's specifications and supplied by a German company to Manurhin. If pressed, I probably can find the name of the company...

M
 

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Discussion Starter #7
The statement is correct.

Unless, of course, the finished gun found its way to Germany.

Walther supplied drawings not only for the finished components, but for the raw forgings from which they were machined. If I recall correctly, there were 9 parts made from forgings, all of which were drop-forged to Walther's specifications and supplied by a German company to Manurhin. If pressed, I probably can find the name of the company...

M
Thank you,
Up until today I incorrectly thought that after the war all pistols were machined in France and then sent to Germany for roll marking, hardening, fitting of parts and blueing. Even the ones with Manurhin on the slides. I now understand that some were entirely machined, stamped, hardened , fitted and assembled to the final product in France.
 

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Walther supplied drawings not only for the finished components, but for the raw forgings from which they were machined. If I recall correctly, there were 9 parts made from forgings, all of which were drop-forged to Walther's specifications and supplied by a German company to Manurhin. If pressed, I probably can find the name of the company...

M
Aha. That’s a bit different from Walther supplying forgings. But it is an interesting tidbit I was not aware of. A German company being able to produce handgun parts, in whatever raw form, during that time period (1952 - 1957) is legally a curiosity I’d like to know more about, so if you can find the details as to that company, that would be appreciated.
 

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Aha. That’s a bit different from Walther supplying forgings. ....
I never said that Walther supplied the forgings, only that they came from Germany. Since raw forgings are not firearms, I don't detect any particular "legal" problem -- but if you do, you are free to explore it.

The supplier was Carl Sulberg in Remscheid/Ruhr.

M
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
In fairness to MGMike I must take credit for using the words "supplied by Walther" in my OP. It was a generalized statement and oversight to detail on my part.
In the quote from the Manurhin myth thread note that it says "supplied from Germany".
At any rate the forgings were forged on German soil by a German company to the specifications of Walther. More than likely Walther selected the company they preferred to do the forging.
The forgings did not arrive in France on a truck with the Carl Walther name and banner on it's door but they may as well have considering Walther's apparent influence on their origin.
Thank you to all for the help.
 

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If I am lucky enough to find a PP someday it is a shooter that I am looking for.
I have no aversion to a Manurhin pistol, none at all. I have a Beretta made in 1951 and it exemplifies what you say about pride during that era.
So these pistols were manufactured entirely in France with material specified by Walther from Germany?
Do your magazines say "Manurhin" on one side and "made in France on the other side?
In addition to the slide and barrel is there a French proof mark on the frame?
Do you have any German markings on the pistol anywhere?
Both OEM mags have Made in France & Manurhin 7.65mm on each side.
The only proof stamps are the crown looking crest followed by St.Etienne that are on the slide and on the frame (barrel shroud seen through the slides ejection port). Nothing on the actual barrel itself. Some get the shroud and barrel confused. The shroud is part of the frame in one piece.
Not one German marking on it. The nicest specimen I ever owned.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Both OEM mags have Made in France & Manurhin 7.65mm on each side.
The only proof stamps are the crown looking crest followed by St.Etienne that are on the slide and on the frame (barrel shroud seen through the slides ejection port). Nothing on the actual barrel itself. Some get the shroud and barrel confused. The shroud is part of the frame in one piece.
Not one German marking on it. The nicest specimen I ever owned.
Guilty again. Guess I am used to seeing the barrel on the open slide of my Beretta.
Plus the German pistols seem to have the proof marks in three places as opposed to the two places you mention.
 

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......Both OEM mags have Made in France & Manurhin 7.65mm on each side.
The only proof stamps are the crown looking crest followed by St.Etienne that are on the slide and on the frame (barrel shroud seen through the slides ejection port). Nothing on the actual barrel itself...
I have a 1957 vintage Manurhin 7.65mm PP with one magazine, the proof marks and magazine stampimgs are in exactly the same place, the only difference is that the proof stamps are from the Mulhouse proof house, a subsidiary of the St Etienne proof house at the time. The proof marks are a crown over a shield with a mill wheel in it - similar to the Manurhin logo..
 

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My markings are exactly the the same as Absalom's in post #2 of this thread. Right down to the X'ed out ByP.
 

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What I'd like to do someday is contact Byp and find some history on who was issued this pistol before it got turned in and thank the original officer/heirs that it is pristine and was well taken care & now in my hands to treasure. Pictures and a letter from the USA would be kind of cool.
Now, how to go about doing this??
 

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What I'd like to do someday is contact Byp and find some history on who was issued this pistol before it got turned in and thank the original officer/heirs that it is pristine and was well taken care & now in my hands to treasure. Pictures and a letter from the USA would be kind of cool.
Now, how to go about doing this??
Some people get lucky with German police pistols when they buy them with the numbered box, and the officer's name is found on a sticky or hand-written inside the lid; I've seen both.

But considering modern Germans' obsession with Datenschutz (protection of personal data), I'd say "fat chance" to getting any official help in obtaining that information, even if you could explain to them why that would be any of your business.

Since the PP's were out of service by the early 1980s, that was all pre-digital. So if a life depended on this, a trip to Munich and making friends with some Bavarian state archivist who might know where the old police paper records, maybe on microfiche, are stored and how to gain access, is likely the only way to accomplish this, and all to get a name of someone who, given the timeline, is almost certainly no longer with us.

A long shot. Sorry to be a downer. :eek:
 

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I figured as much, but might give it a go. In a perfect world maybe. Still would be cool to get some history, though.
 

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I don't think any PD is going to give out personal info on officers.
It's almost certainly illegal under German law. And that's only half the problem.

Put somewhat simplified, you're not dealing with a PD as such; the ByP stamp was applied, pursuant to a new law from July 1968, to all police pistols then owned by the state of Bavaria, except for those that were issued to the old Landpolizei and already had the marking (LPBy) from the 1950s/60s; some were actually double-stamped anyway.

So the pistol could have been issued anywhere in Bayern. If you were, say, a detective with a warrant having to trace the gun, you'd have to first go to Munich to determine where the shipment from Manurhin was received and whether any records still exist how the pistols were parceled out to the different police districts and from there on further down to subordinate offices until finally you hopefully find a record of the gun being issued to a specific officer. IF that still exists.
 

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Hi. I recently found and bought a Manurhin PPK in .22lr. It’s beautiful and has a 102*** serial number. Does anyone know what year that would correspond to? Thanks. King
 
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