Walther Forums banner

1 - 20 of 26 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hello everyone. Thinking about buying a Manurhin PP in .22 LR, but comes with only one magazine. Finding magazines seems to be a challenge. Any suggestions on where to look? Thank you in advance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,921 Posts
Welcome. Beautiful pistol and a lot of fun to shoot. Everyone should have one, or two or three. Mags....that's another story. Earls might have some but get the big checkbook out if so. Some show up on e-bay from time to time. There is a section in the FAQ's regarding finding old parts. Why couldn't Walther have designed the PPK/S Umarex for the old mag design...then they could have sold plenty to everyone with the steel pistols. MecGar won't even make them. I did adapt some other makes to work in your pistol...that info is in a thread around here somewhere. They aren't original, they aren't designed for the PP but they work. Good luck and welcome. 1917
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Thank you for your warm welcome, 1917, and for your fast and quite sobering reply. I will keep an eye on Earl’s, while gathering a roll of bills, and look for your thread on how to adapt. Best regards! Xcpd
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,921 Posts


Here is a photo of three Smith and Wesson compact .22 mags that I adapted to .22 cal PPs. These are available, cost $19 each. Basically you have to grind off all protrusions, round the front of the mag off against a belt sander, cut a Walther style hole for the mag catch, cut the nose of the mag down a bit to clear the feed ramp, cut the left side front ear off to more or less match a PP .22 mag (has to clear the leg under the ejector). Then cut across the spline, punch it out a bit to stop over insertion. And finally, follower on the right side. Remove the small bump at the rear and add JBWeld to raise the follower engagement notch to a higher point as is appropriate for a PP ejector. You can look at the bottom to see how the mags look as they hang down below the grip. They are longer. All three locked in fine, fed fine. You can use the pull down button for loading but must remove it before inserting the mag. Ugly...but they worked. P22 mags are physically too large, same for PPK/S mags. I never did find a Bersa .22 mag to modify. They might almost be drop ins. 1917

Edit; each of the above mags got the same treatment with exception of the follower. The one on the left I ground the stock follower down so that the wider area at the bottom half would engage the PP ejector. This allows 12 rounds but when you shorten a follower you can cause it to want to bind. Taking what I learned from #1, I did less modifications to the follower in the center mag but still had to modify it or engagement with the ejector. The mag on the right shows an almost stock follower. I removed the small bump at the rear which is intended to hold a round in position so it can't slide forward until the breech rail shoves the round forward. Would it work with the bump there....probably, but I removed it and you learn as you go. At the front, left side I added JBWeld to build up the height of the follower body so it would engage the ejector leg similar in time to a PP mag. I installed the JBW, let it cure just a bit, cut off the rear portion so it would not hit the left front mag lip. JBW can be moulded while soft and can be filed or sanded after it has hardened. Useful stuff and it really sticks well to oil free surfaces. I would guess it takes me 15 to 20 minutes to modify one of these mags not including waiting for the JBW to harden. The hardest part is making a proper hole for the mag catch. Too low and the mag won't lock in. Too high and the locked in mag will sit too low. Now if I had a machine shop....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,921 Posts
Here is what you should learn from that...all of us have to. Type it up to a certain point and post it. Then edit adding more and post. Repeat as often as necessary. Sure there will be a note at the bottom saying you have edited. So what. I go back and forth from Imgur as photo hosting site and if I take too long....my unpublished post will be gone. So I post and don't care about the edit note. It is the going offsite to get my photos or other information that can kill a thread. So, post and edit to add more info. 1917
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Thank you, 1917, for your insightful and detailed instructions on transforming a S&W .22 cal magazine into a functioning PP magazine. The engineering, the trials, and then re-engineering again was an amazing build to read. I thought you had a machine shop until you commented on what you could do with one. Also having learned a lesson that I should post now and edit later, I will cut to the chase to let you know that the seller of the PP backed out. This was unfortunate since it was nicely within my price range. My first reaction was of embarrassment considering how much effort you had put forth in teaching me how to make my second and third magazines. So, I searched for a .22 cal PP and aside from scarcity, they were much more expensive (although most came with accessories). During the search, I found a Manurhin PPK/S in .22 cal — yes, again one magazine, but the price was right so I snagged it. It is in shipment as I write, although I don’t know when I will be able to transfer it from an FFL during this outbreak. Once again, I am throughly grateful for your thoughtful teachings and they will not be wasted, as your words (photos and links) will be archived for the benefit of many fortunate others that follow. One day, I will get a hold of a PP. Now, regarding the PPK/S magazine, shall I start a new thread? Xcpd

Edit: No, I should not start a new thread — I should have studied some basics on PP, PPK, and PPK/S before rambling on as I did above! Would it be safe for me to assume that your modification instructions for the PP should work for the PPK/S? Thank you, Xcpd
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,921 Posts
Well, at least you have one magazine. Just release and load more. The PPK uses a shorter mag but I'm pretty sure PP or PPK/S mags will fit the PPK. They all have the same lips and mag catch slots. The longer mags just stick out the bottom of the grip. I might put on my mask today and hit the UPS shop with the 3-D printer. Take a couple of parts down there and ask how I can make them.

I would like to make some more followers so I could make them all very neatly. Each time you make something you can make it better and more refined. The last one had very minimal changes to the follower. Why not print one exactly like it. I'd also like to make a spacer to fill the gap between the bottom plate and the grips. Also a PP type finger extension base. I think there aren't going to be any more mags made for these pistols, .22 cal. So we might have to look for other options as onerous that that might be.

It is my opinion that feeding issues some people experience with original .22 PP mags is that they don't have stagger slots to allow the top rounds to properly align nose up against the feed lips. I actually modified an original mag (gasp) and added stagger slots. It functioned well...which is why most modern mags, including Walther made, have stagger slots.

If MecGar were to make mags for .22 pistols I'd be good for an order of 10 immediately. Apparently they aren't interested. They do make mags for the .32 and they work fine in a .32. They even lock into a .22 but of course the lips are entirely wrong....and you can't bend them...someone tried, they snap off due to the hardening of the steel. Bersa mags might require very little modifications but they are as hard to find as PP .22 mags so not much help there.

The hardest part on the Smith mags to make is the D hole for the mag catch but I see no reason it needs to be D shaped. A slot would work just as well. It simply needs to be wide enough, the top o the cut at the appropriate height, not wrap around too far so that the nose of rounds drag across it. The mags over insert just a bit with regard to the catch then settle back down against it so it is what holds the mag at the proper level. All new Walther/Umarex mags are P22 size which is too large to fit into a PP magwell. I did not find any of the 1911 Umarex mags for Colt pistols but they too look P22 size but with a major cut out at the nose of the mag. 1917
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,921 Posts
There is also another thread where I modified a Bernadelli and some other make of mag to fit a PP. Same time frame, last August or so and probably 12 pages back in the PP section. I did not find the PP to be picky with regard to these other mags as long as the basics were right. I find more issues with the old, stock mags not feeding properly and this is due, I'm convinced, to bad stacking that could be corrected with stagger slots. 1917



On the left is a P22 mag. On the right I think is an old PP mag that I added stagger slots to. Note how the stagger slot allows the rims to offset which allows the top rounds to properly align at a nose up attitude. This is why modern mags come with stagger slots. That is not a Walther bottom place but I had a mix of stuff laying around. Even P22 followers/springs work in old PP mags. You just have to get the basics right. Angle of the body of the mag, physically fit into the magwell, modify the follower to engage the ejector leg at the appropriate time, and make a hole so that the mag is locked in at the proper height. What to do about overly long mags is more difficult. Just use them for shooting and then hide them in your range bag. Also small things like the bottom plate being a little too thick on the top and interfering with allowing the mag to reach high enough...e.x., P22 bottom plate. or the hole or the plate of the spring not aligning properly and reqiring a new hole at the bottom of the polymer plate. But, easy to modify.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,921 Posts
If you study on these magazines a bit you will soon understand exactly how the PP pistols work. Below is a P22 mag on the left and a PP on the right. The P22 has expanded tabs that would not work in a PP even if the body were smaller. But, you could simply grind them off. Don't bother, the mag body is too large. Then the follower button on the side of the mag engages the slide hold open arm on a P22. On a PP the follower engages an inner leg on the ejector/slide hold open arm. So, the P22 follower would have to be modified to work in a PP mag by removing a section of the top so that the full body of the follower would engage the PP ejector and that is easily done. Then, you either use a P22 spring and bottom plate or you have to modify the bottom of the P22 follower to work with a PP spring which has an entirely different design. But this is how you analyze what might need to be done to modify a part, first making sure the part will fit inside a PP magazine. Yes they do.



Ruger mags won't fit....too steep an angle, no point in even trying. I did not look at a 22/45 mag. You just never know what you might run across and if a 22/45 mag fit then I would have to look at the lips and if there was metal missing at the location I would need to installed the mag catch slot. If the lips looked like they could be modified, the mag body had the right slant, fit into a PP magwell....then I could grind off stuff that was in the way, install some manner of overtravel stop, modify the lips, follower and install a slot or D shaped cutout for the mag catch and be good to go.

Someone sent me a sawn off PP frame with enough working parts for testing mags. This makes it nice in that I can observe everything and not worry about scratching up the frame on one of my nice .22 PPs. 1917
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Thank you for sharing the wealth of your theories and empirical workings to counter the lack of availability of PP magazines. I do hope that your 3D printing efforts work. As for the stagger slot — is that the “cutout slot” just to the left of the centerline of the old PP mag (first photo mag on the right) that matches the “slot” on the P22 mag? If so, that is one heck of a cut! I also see the rims staggering.

Is there no financial incentive for a magazine manufacturer to support the owners of PP’s in .22? Am I overestimating the quantity of owners out there?

“Modify the follower to engage the ejector leg at the appropriate time” — “On a PP the follower engages an inner leg on the ejector/ slide hold open arm” — Please elaborate.

Thank you again. Xcpd
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,921 Posts
The 3-D machine is gone. And, it didn't scan, you had to prepare your own files. I wouldn't know how to do that anyway. I need a scanner model.

The mag catch cutout on PP mags is the quarter of a pie shaped hole on the front of the left side of the mag. You can remove the slide and have a look at how the catch moves back and forth as you press the release button. It simply pops into the hole in the side of the mag body and holds the mag from moving downward until it is pressed, releasing the body. You can remove the guts of the mag when cleaning, insert the mag body and have a look at the nose of the catch reaching into the inside of the mag if you need further clarification of how it works.

The P22 has expanded tabs that operate in a somewhat similar manner. They ride up over the catch and the bottom of the tabs is caught until the mag release levers are depressed.

I have no idea what it costs to set up for producing a magazine. Wonders what happened to the old tooling. But, there are a lot of .22 PP pistols around the world and with mags at $100 + if you can find one I expect plenty of people would purchase five or ten. Once the demand was satisfied I expect sales would drop off quickly...which means they would likely be expensive to offset production costs. Perhaps too expensive....I have no idea. On the other hand perhaps something like a P22 follower/spring could be used, the magazine simplified somewhat with bottom parts taken from some existing mag that is in production.

I'd like to see a video on how mags are manufactured. Stamped from plate, lips formed, holes punched, folded and brazed in some manner or the other. Recent P22, PPK/S 22, etc. mags have a different manner in which the rear spline is joined.

The magazine performs a couple of functions. First it hold extra rounds, feeding them upward in a precise manner so that the breech rail can shove them forward and into the chamber. Not all semi auto pistols lock open when empty.....I don't believe the original Ruger LCP did for example. It had a manual catch only. I might be wrong...sold mine several years ago.

But most semi auto pistols have some mechanism for holding the slide open after the last shot is fired. PP pistols do. Of the three calibers the operation is performed in a similar manner although the mags/followers differ slightly. When the last round is removed from the magazine and chambered there is no longer a round holding the follower down and away from the top of the magazine. As the last round is removed either manually or by firing, the slide is blown rearward and in that brief instant when the slide is all the way rearward and before it begins to move forward to close the magazine follower presses the slide hold open arm up and in the front of the breech face. The catch has to pop up very quickly in order to be in position to catch the slide.

So it is the job of the follower to press the ejector/slide hold open arm up very quickly so that it can block forward movement of the slide. Friction of the breech face against the rear of the arm holds the arm in place. If you remove the magazine the arm will continue to hold the slide open. When you insert a magazine with even one round in it, the follower is depressed and no longer able to engage the ejector. It only does so when the mag is empty. All three calibers work the same way but the followers have a bit of a different design unique to each, particularly the .22 model. On the .22 the front, left side of the nose has a portion that sticks out to the left specifically to engage a leg manufactured into the inside of the ejector/slide hold open arm.

So, when you are monkeying around with other mags or installing P22 mag parts in a PP magazine....one critical area with regard to holding the slide open when the mag is empty is making sure the follower reaches far enough to the left to engage the same leg, shove it upward enough to securely place the rear of the arm in front of the breech and not be too tall or too short so that it can't perform this function. There is no point in reinventing the wheel here....just look at a stock PP .22 follower, how it sits in the mag and make your other parts mimic it. On the Smith mags I did this three different ways. Leaning as I went along. By the time I got to the third one I saw that some of the extra effort was not necessary and that by building up the left side only and almost stock follower worked fine. I should add that the stock follower allowed rounds to be fed into the chamber fine...but I also wanted it to hold the slide open when empty.....that required modifying the follower since that is the second job required of the follower. 1917



Above is a photo of an empty magazine in a .22 PP. Note where the arrow is pointing. The follower has risen all the way to the top of the mag body, engaged the ejector arm and raised it in that brief moment the slide was all the way to the rear. So, when using some other magazine or other parts....you need to make them duplicate this operation if you want the slide to be held open and only at the correct time which is....empty mag.



Another photo of the same and note; all PP pistols function in essentially the same manner here although the shape of the parts differ.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,921 Posts


Above is the third Smith follower as modified. I removed a small bump on top of the followers, I added just a touch of JB Weld to the top, rear of the follower so that it would not lean rearward quite as much when in the mag body. (This is controlled by the follower pull down button in the stock Smith mag but the button will not fit inside the PP frame) and with regard to the only modification I made to make the part engage the stock PP ejector properly...I filled above the full width, round portion of the follower with a column of JB Weld. As it hardened I took a razor blade and trimmed the rear of the column off so as to not interfere with the left ear of the mag and cut the top height off to match what would be seen in a stock PP mag. Building that column up as shown allows the empty mag follower to engage the stock PP .22 ejector and lift it only when the mag is empty. This column never touches the ejector leg unless the mag is empty and the slide retracted. So wear is minimal in this area. 1917
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Dear 1917,
Apologize for falling off the grid for a while, as my company demands a lot on top of my family and causes me to tire out at the end of the day. Trust that you are doing well? Axeyardbob PM’d me with an offer for some new old stock mags for the PPK/S, so I took him up on them. As soon as I can get them in my hands, I will study them carefully in order to fully grasp all that you have patiently taught me. Now, I have to find the time to get out to enjoy the newly found and exciting world of .22 Manurhins. Thank you immensely again. Xcpd
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,921 Posts
I think that most people who have a PP of any flavor in .22 also have at least 1 mag. Well, as long as you have one...you can load and shoot. However, these mags are getting harder and harder to find while the pistol will live forever.

I expect if someone were to manufacture mags for these pistols at a huge start up cost as soon as they sold enough for those that have these pistol...then demand would likely almost entirely dry up. So, it is doubtful anyone will produce them.....which is why I'm looking at what other commonly available mags might be made to work while your original gets to take a break. 1917
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,910 Posts
We have a mag maker here in FL that I know pretty well and have discussed the Walther .22 mags with him. High start up cost and the small finite market make them a bad investment for a manufacturer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Thanks again, 1917, for your detailed instructions and you’re right, Jimbo80 confirms your assertion that production is not an attractive investment. Last week, axyardbob sent me a PM offering up some new old stock PPK/S .22 magazines made by Interarms ($75 a piece). I have also received recommendations on Triple K PP-PPKS 10 round magazines ($45 a piece). Your thoughts would be appreciated. Xcpd
 
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
Top