[submoa]

I've seen some concerns in this and other forums concerning the lack of a manual safety on P99s (SW99, Glock, etc...).

For these folks, I'd like to suggest the "Israeli Carry" method. Empty chamber, full mag. You will need to rack the slide on your draw but consider that fine motor skills degrade under stress and you may be too fidgety to remember/use the small manual safety on guns so equipped.

As an added benefit for AS owners, the gun will be in SA mode so you will not have to deal with the DA->SA transition accuracy issues. QA owners can carry with the added safety of a decocked trigger, and will be ready to fire after racking.

 

[Ogie]

I've seen some concerns in this and other forums concerning the lack of a manual safety on P99s (SW99, Glock, etc...).

For these folks, I'd like to suggest the "Israeli Carry" method. Empty chamber, full mag. You will need to rack the slide on your draw but consider that fine motor skills degrade under stress and you may be too fidgety to remember/use the small manual safety on guns so equipped.

As an added benefit for AS owners, the gun will be in SA mode so you will not have to deal with the DA->SA transition accuracy issues. QA owners can carry with the added safety of a decocked trigger, and will be ready to fire after racking.

I don't agree. Any concerns you may have with fine motor skills can just as easily apply to racking the slide under stress. A pistol without a round in the chamber can be potentially useless. With practice you will not forget to disengage the safety on 1911 type pistols. Again, with practice there will be no DA/SA transition issues when using the P99 AS.

 

[James NM]

Yea, I think I'll pass too. I always have a round chambered.

 

[submoa]

I don't agree. Any concerns you may have with fine motor skills can just as easily apply to racking the slide under stress. A pistol without a round in the chamber can be potentially useless. With practice you will not forget to disengage the safety on 1911 type pistols. Again, with practice there will be no DA/SA transition issues when using the P99 AS.

The intention of the original post was not to debate the need for a manual safety or proper training. The best gun safety is the one between your ears installed with appropriate training.

There are people out there who 'absolutely require' a manual safety for psychological reasons and will not be deterred. I make no excuses for them but acknowledge they exist. Israeli carry gives them an alternative where guns w/o manual safeties could be acceptable to them. This was the reasoning I used to sell a buddy on a P99 rather than letting him make a Taurus 24/7 mistake (although ultimately a little 'Bond' helped )....

Its amazing the list of topics where people's opinions won't budge:

• How 1911 A1 is the best gun in the world.... after polishing the ramp and throat, lowering and flaring the ejector port, beveling the mag well, lightening the trigger...
• The relative 'safety' of 1911 Condition One vs Israeli Carry vs loaded chambered and cocked P99QA.
• Strongside IWB, OWB vs crossdraw vs vert shoulder vs xshoulder vs SOB vs bandolier carry
• How shot placement obsoletes high capacity mags .... until you need to pacify multiple assailants
• Stopping power of .45 vs. 9mm.

 

[Jake Starr]

Okay here we go again....

 

[sniper350]

I've seen some concerns in this and other forums concerning the lack of a manual safety on P99s (SW99, Glock, etc...).

Well, the Glock was specifically designed to operate safely without a manual safety.......... if one can't handle that type of handgun safely, then might I suggest those people not carry a handgun for self defense at all. Basically a Glock is a revolver that loads through a magazine, if you catch my drift. It takes a long "measured pull" of the trigger in order for the gun to go bang. Same long measured trigger pull as a revolver.

If you are worried about loosing control of the firearm in a struggle and want to rely on a manual safety to prevent the attacker from using your weapon, there are better ways to accomplish this goal. S&W has for years been using a magazine safety on some of their pistols to prevent this from happening. Remove the magazine, and the gun becomes useless ........ meaning that an attacker [ given the time ] can't figure out the manual safety and start firing. This feature also has its drawbacks...........should the magazine be knocked loose......and you need the pistol to go bang - you are out of luck. I have never had a magazine failure that rendered any of my pistols [ so equiped ] useless, but that is not to say it can't and doesn't happen on occassion.

For CCW work ....... it is MHO that a pistol carried on an empty chamber is very dangerous and could very easily lead to your death, should the weapon be needed. 99.9% of the time CCW use of a handgun ......... depends on a certain amount of suprise to be effective. As it has been stated correctly on this forum many times ...it is quite difficult to "fast draw" a weapon with any speed and accuracy ----- taking into account different clothing being worn each day and therefore may require slight changes in draw technique. Having to throw that additional movement of charging the weapon into the mix, under extreme stress ,would indeed require lots of training. Not impossible, but beyond the type of training most of us engage in during our range sessions.

There will always be a certain amount of danger using a tool, such as a semi-auto Pistol........... and as hard as we might try, it will be almost impossible to eliminate these dangers through mechanical means and still offer the owner the advantage of speed, accuracy and ease of use under severe stress. The Glock comes pretty darn close ...........while the Walther P-99 [ AS model ] requires a bit more training and concentration on what you are doing.

JF.

 

[dodgefate]

the reason i obut a q&a was because of the fact that you can decock it! i love my glock but the non saftey issue scared me. My father always pounded the saftey issue into my head. As a kid ( i think i was 12) after one time when i was hunting and fell and the saftey wasent on and the shotgun went off. No one was hurt and the gun was pointed in a safe directon but no deer..... I still feel liek a idiot for that, but thats y i am so worried about saftey now. Thats what sold me on the p99c with the decocker, i wanted something comparable to the glock but safer and walther was my answer!

 

[sniper350]

You made an excellent choice ....for a very good reason. Sounds like in your family safety is "number one" .......... I would go shooting with you anyday !


JF.

 

[Rotorflyr]

While I don't personally carry using it there's nothing wrong with the "Israeli Carry" method, provided you train to use it, and train that way all the time so it becomes a "muscle memory" reflex.

 

[ShipWreck]

Well, I have said it before. Very likely scenarios come up, and if they gun isn't completely loaded w/ 1 in the chamber, U are screwed...

Parking lot - someone comes up with a weapon (knife or gun) and tries to rob U. U MIGHT be able to get the gun out while faking like U are grabbing your wallet. Really think U will ALSO have time to pull the slide back w/ 2 hands?

Carjacking? Will U have time to pull the slide back w/ 2 hands?

 

[blueiron]

This "option" comes up often and some people think its a great idea. Their emphasis is always safety first and if they have been to some type of training, the term: "degradation of motor skills" gets added.

Years ago, I was assigned to a "special weapons" detail while in the Marine Corps. A few morons had previously fooled around with their M1911A1 pistols and managed to ND their weapons, so to prevent this, the pistols had their slides safety wired shut, with the chamber empty and a loaded magazine in place.

The "theory" was that if we were being attacked, the stress and adrenaline would supplement the arm strength needed to break the safety wire and cycle the slide in order to load it. Another "benefit" was that the slide was wired closed and that holstering it in that condition would prevent the slide from opening and allowing debris in. Later testing of this "option" proved that most Marines couldn't break the safety wire. The specified wire gauge was in short supply at the Air Wing, so they substituted a larger and much stronger gauge.

Logic is fine up to a point and then common sense should take over when logic doesn't apply. This issue is one of those times. An unloaded gun is USELESS. 23 years of police work and firearms instruction has taught me that. If you need a firearm, you need it then and there, not in a few seconds. Adding an additional manual of arms movement to make the pistol operational is ridiculous and dangerous.

Walthers, Glocks, SiGs, 1911s, even the Colt SAA are perfectly safe pistols, IF the user keeps their fingers out of the trigger guard until it is time to fire. If a shooter doesn't or can't do this, they need to stay away from self defense carry and have a cell phone handy.

 

[PX15]

FWIW:

I've been carrying concealed since 1966...

From the beginning I've depended on the 1st round heavy da trigger pull as my "safety".. So far, it's worked just fine.

When I started acquiring pistols I always depended on the 1st roundheavy da trigger pull as my "safety".. So far, it's worked just fine.

If the pistol had an external safety (my S&W 3913 for example) I didn't use it. I depended on the 1st round heavy da trigger pull as my "safety".. So far, it's worked just fine.


I simply cannot imagine a situation where I would carry a round in the chamber in any sa configuration, nor can I imagine a situation where I would NOT have a round in the chamber.

I know all about the "cocked 'n locked" 1911 business, but I never felt comfortable considering that option, so I don't "do" 1911's or other SA first rd. firearms for that reason.

I loved my original HiPower, but never felt comfortable with it's needing to be "cocked" for the first round. I sold it.

If you have an ad/nd via a screwup on a da trigger pull you are an idiot, and you should not be allowed to carry a firearm or own a pet..

CC a firearm, IMO, with an empty chamber means you are carrying a very poor hammer.

*Dissenting opinions welcomed and cheerfully ignored

Best Wishes,

J. Pomeroy

* Exercising my senior citizen semi-senile "not responsible for accuracy" option here.

 

[Riktoven]

PX15

I'm the same way. The long heavy pull is all the safety I want. No hair triggers. Nothing to mechanically keep me from firing, but just enough pull length to give me a chance to change my mind about that first shot.

I'm not going to tell anyone else how to carry or what to carry. But I will say that IMO, manual safeties are a bad idea for Concealed Carry. Israeli Carry IMO is as stupid as it gets for CC. Self Defense shootings for peasants don't involve quick draws from thigh holsters (at least not since 1908). You are drawing from a concealed position, which is already slower than you want. Unless you are super fast or very lucky, you can't afford to be any slower.

 

[ikiddp5]

PX15

I'm the same way. The long heavy pull is all the safety I want. No hair triggers. Nothing to mechanically keep me from firing, but just enough pull length to give me a chance to change my mind about that first shot.

I'm not going to tell anyone else how to carry or what to carry. But I will say that IMO, manual safeties are a bad idea for Concealed Carry. Israeli Carry IMO is as stupid as it gets for CC. Self Defense shootings for peasants don't involve quick draws from thigh holsters (at least not since 1908). You are drawing from a concealed position, which is already slower than you want. Unless you are super fast or very lucky, you can't afford to be any slower.

Well said! +1!

 

[Soybomb]

Personally I'd sell a gun I didn't feel safe carrying with a round chambered and buy one I did. Ymmv

 

[InfernoMDM]

XXX thousand users of modern weapons such as Walther, Sig, HK, and Glock safely control there bogger hook from comeing in contact with the bang stick. That being said ever year XXX-XXXX people fuck up and ND. I would be willing to bet thats in the 100s range but I don't have any data. This includes cops, the venerable DEA agent, and Civilians alike.

Whats this mean? Keep your fucking finger off the trigger, and a modern weapon shouldn't fire unless you don't maintain your weapon.

 

[PX15]

Actually I think the "Israeli Idiot Savant Carry" method might be the safest of all..

1. No round in chamber.
2. No magazine in magwell.
3 Unarmed associate w/ fully loaded magazine.

A fully magazine SHOULD be carried by an otherwise unarmed associate, and he should be able to place the full loaded magazine in your off hand within a reasonable amount of time.

The otherwise unarmed associate should then immediately endeavour to engage the threat in conversation. This conversation can be meaningful, or non-meaningful converstation.. The object being to distract the threat as opposed to a transfer of serious ideas.

While the threat, or threats, are being slowed by the delaying tactic of the unarmed associate the person with the firearm, who by this time will have had the fully loaded magazine transferred to him will insert the magazine in the magwell, retract the slide to load a round in the chamber. (extreme caution should be exercised from this point forward)

The person with the now fully loaded, and chambered firearm shall, in a loud and clear voice, tell the unarmed associate to cease further conversation, step smartly out of the line of fire, place both an index finger in both ears, and close his eyes, tightly.

The person with the now fully loaded and chambered firearm WILL at this point in a loud and clear voice warn the potential threat that there is distinct possibility lethal force could be used in a very short timeframe unless the threat retreats and allows the potential for escalation to continue.

There has been some concern about the potential for an ad/nd after the confrontation has ceased, and in lieu of this potential danger the unarmed associate shall immediately request the now loaded, and dangerous firearm to be placed carefully on the ground. The pistol shall then have a foam pillow placed over it to prevent potential for ad/nd by a passerbye.

Both the person who had the unloaded firearm, and the unarmed associate shall immediately go to the nearest freeway and stand in the middle of the fast lane.. Because they are both too stupid to live..

By the way, the "Israeli I.S. Carry" actually originated in Poland, but when political correctness became the norm after 1993 the method was given to the Israeli Government who in turn gave it to the Palestinians, who in turn use it to this very day. Or so I hear.

Best Wishes,

J. Pomeroy

 

[RickJZ]

I always carry with a round chambered.

 

[OM44]

Empty chamber!

After I read the first post in this thread, I was about ready to wade into this topic once again, but I think several people have responded adequately.

I only want to add that carrying an empty firearm is STUPID, and will get you
KILLED. And a semi-auto with an empy chamber is EMPTY.

Enough of this, this time around.

 

[Jake Starr]

J. Pomeroy

Actually I think the "Israeli Idiot Savant Carry" method might be the safest of all..

1. No round in chamber.
2. No magazine in magwell.
3 Unarmed associate w/ fully loaded magazine.

You are closer to the truth than you know. This past summer I was in Germany and I was able to engage to Airport Customs agents...they carried Sig 229s. They always were in pairs, one guard had a pistol in condition 3, the one who would ask travelers for their passports. The other who stood close by as an observer was carrying lock and loaded. They would trade off every other day so as to stay alert. This was common practice among airport security. I can?t speak for all the other German police.

I was originally trained in Israeli Tactical Shooting and carried in condition 3 for years. It was may training, I felt secure with at and stuck to it?until just recently. When I began shooting USPSA, I used the slingshot method and found that it really was not effective for competition so I switch to cocked and locked. Well since I like my practice and training to be consistent, I switched. I am not sorry either.