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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I know, I know -- it's an unreliable stamped gun that no one in his/her right mind wants, right? Well, if you leave it in OEM condition, I agree, but yesterday a friend showed me something that had me re-thinking my feelings on the MAC-11 … because low demand tends to equal low price.

Specifically, Lage Manufacturing has a replacement upper, replacement bolt, and replacement stock for use on NFA MAC-11's. The upper modernizes the firearm and addresses the reliability concerns, while the bolt slows the RoF to something more controllable, and the stock is just icing.


Given my desire for a 9mm SMG and the absurd cost of most of them, this looks like a potential avenue for a 'reasonably priced' (relative to SMG prices) modern(ized), controllable SMG. Since MAC-11's are 'cheap' in the SMG world, this might actually be within reach - assuming I sell some of my firearms while saving diligently for a long while.

Aesthetics aside, I'm curious as to the opinions of others who might know more than I do about the MAC-11 … and SMG's in general.


 

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I have a Mac 11/9 as well as a Mac 11. They both run great. Very reliable guns as long as you have decent magazines for them. The plastic 11/9 mags run well until they break ................. they are fairly robust; I have only broken a few over the years. The 11 mags can be found in metal brand new these days and as long as you are buying mags made specifically for the guns, not some adaptation, the guns should run reliably.

The cyclic rates can be a bit fast but those that say they cannot be shot due to such must just have bad finger control. I can rip off two and three round bursts no problem with either. They are also far from inaccurate too.

I love my Mac 11 with can. It is an awesome brief case gun.

The Lage adaptations make these little beasts able to beat out MP 5 and Colt smgs at the competitive shoots but I hate the way they look. I do not use them but they do work wonders.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks for the input. If nothing else it helps confirm that this might be viable.

Interestingly I prefer the Lage upper's look. I also hate the broom handle, but it's absolutely functional (and in the one place a broom handle makes sense - which is the front end of a super-short MG).
 

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Sounds interesting. So, what's the process? Pick u a used Mac 11 9mm, fill out ATF paperwork to manufacture a 'full auto' weapon? Once approved, obtain full auto kit????

I don't have a clue.....just guessing.
 

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No, one would have to find a transferable 11/9; buy it, fill out NFA paperwork, wait for tax stamp to have it transferred to them. Once this is done one can place their Lage upper and other parts on it to modify it as shown in the photo.

Due to the Hughes Amendment of 1986 SMG's manufactured after 1986 are not transferable to the public anymore.
 
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I agree with the broom handle statement: it does give one something to hang onto if one does not have a can on it.

PS: I should not have said I hate the Lage upper. I simply do not care for it.

Here is one in the background:
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
Sounds interesting. So, what's the process? Pick u a used Mac 11 9mm, fill out ATF paperwork to manufacture a 'full auto' weapon? Once approved, obtain full auto kit????
Close. Keep reading.

No, one would have to find a transferable 11/9; buy it, fill out NFA paperwork, wait for tax stamp to have it transferred to them. Once this is done one can place their Lage upper and other parts on it to modify it as shown in the photo.

Due to the Hughes Amendment of 1986 SMG's manufactured after 1986 are not transferable to the public anymore.
Spot-on.


Oldfart,
The complete upper by Lage Manufacturing is just that … an upper. Think AR-15 and you have the right idea in terms of upper/lower. The analogy holds because, just as it is the lower of an AR-15 that is the serialized part that requires a NICS-approved (or equivalent) 4473 to purchase, it is the lower (esp. the fire control group) of a MAC-11 that is the serialized machine gun which requires ATF approval to purchase. Once someone has his/her tax stamp and MAC-11, one can put any upper one wants on it.

Machine guns are kind of interesting in another way: because they are inherently NFA items to begin with, things like OAL, minimum barrel length (for a rifle), whether it has a stock or not (to determine if it is a pistol) largely go out the window and become immaterial ... since it's not a pistol or a rifle by ATF standards, anymore ... it's a NFA-regulared machine gun.

I'm a little jealous of the briefcase comment, above -- specifically because of what I just described to you. Why? Well, NC issues 'concealed handgun permits' (not 'concealed weapon permits'). This means we cannot conceal knives, rifles, shotguns, or ... machine guns (even if pistol form-factor). More interesting still, NC state law classifies machine guns as weapons of mass destruction. We can have them, of course - provided the ATF approves … but no ready-to-rock briefcase gun for me.


I agree with the broom handle statement: it does give one something to hang onto if one does not have a can on it.
Even with a can on it I'd want a grip up front because I know how hot suppressors get … and how quickly. Thus, a can isn't exactly what I'd want to grip while trying to stay on target. One may, of course, use a thermal wrap/cover, but those are not anchored to the can, which means it's not ideal for keeping the gun on target. Worse, if one's not careful one could get burned if the wrap/cover slipped backward and one accidentally touched the exposed can.)
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
OK, thanks...... So, now the hunt is on for a MAC 11 SMG....made at or before 1986. :D
Lage does MAC-10 uppers, too.

Here's a link to a reputable NFA machine gun dealer -- just to give you some idea of prices (scroll down on the linked page to the M10's; some M11's on the page that follows it): https://dealernfa.com/product-category/machine-guns/page/2/. These prices are what I'd call 'par for the course' -- i.e. not outrageous for the items in question, but not the cheapest, either. As an example, if you check page 1 he's got some Colt M16's in excellent condition priced around 30k. The lowest I've personally seen is 28k and the highest I've seen was 36k. So, that'll give you some idea as to where this pricing falls.

P.S. You should only price shop the 'RR' (aka 'Registered Receiver') MG's. Ignore the 'pre-May' MG's because those are a special sort of dealer sample. Specifically, pre-May dealer samples are MG's manufactured for civilian sale prior to May 19, 1986 but that were never transferred to a non-dealer buyer prior to the cutoff. They can be transferred among dealers, but not to us normal folks. There's also no requirement for a demo letter on them (unlike post-May demos, which DO require a demo letter). Pre-Mays are worth a tad more than post-May dealer samples because a dealer can purchase one from another dealer and then transfer it to his/her private collection when s/he gives up his/her dealer license. However, after doing so, pre-May samples may not be transferred to another person. (i.e. When the dealer who transferred it to his/her private collection dies, it must be turned over to the ATF or destroyed … per ATF regulations.)
 
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I just couldn't stay quiet after reading this post a forum member states a Mac 11with a Lage upper out shooting a MP5. From personal experience NO WAY. I do occasionally shoot subgun matches and have never seen a Mac .Even shooting my UZI or MP5 blindfolded I could shoot more accurately. Well mabe not blindfolded just partially covered with the sun in my eyes, but you get my feelings.
In the Heckler & Koch auto world besides a registered receiver there is a registered sear. A small part about the size of a dime with a serial # that the ATF says is a maching gun. I was fortunate enough to purchase these back in the early 80s when they cost 1/2 of the price of a new cheap cell phone today. A Vietnam error M16's was about the same. Uzi's were even less Back then a Mac was the same price as a ($200.00) ATF tax stamp.
I wish all my investments in life appreciated as much my machine guns have.
Also the Germans even made a operational briefcase for the MP5K that the US secret service used for a few years. I do own one but kept it a virgin.
There's a forum that lives near me that has shot most of my collection but I think the MP5 is his favorite.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
I just couldn't stay quiet after reading this post a forum member states a Mac 11with a Lage upper out shooting a MP5.
Where in this thread did/do you see that? I'm asking because I didn't recall anyone stating that … so then when you mentioned it I went and looked and STILL don't see anything to that effect, here.

What am I missing?

EDIT: Never mind, I finally found it; it was in RogueTS's 1st response. Perhaps he's seen someone with a Lage upper outshoot someone with an Uzi? *shrug*
 

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Trust

Everything I own is in a trust with a trustee listed on the trust. It was Deffently easier to have a trustees in the past.but it still can be done just both trust and trustee have to be approved .. This process has added a couple of extra month's for stamps to get approval. 2 months ago I purchased a WITT Machine 223 titanium suspressor upper that is full auto rated for use on my M16 lower.one stamp.WITT formed 3ed to my local dealer where itTook 1 month to get approved and sent to local dealer. My local dealer has a silencerco kiosk where we both did all our paperwork including finger prints electronically. Immediately sent in and ATF tax stamp paid for. E-Form takes less time to get approved .
But in case of a death or original person listed on trust then idem goes to trustee automatically. Nothing get destroyed.the best part of my local dealer. He meets me with upper at local gun range for me to play with during long waiting period. Sure helps time go by faster.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
Everything I own is in a trust with a trustee listed on the trust. It was Deffently easier to have a trustees in the past.but it still can be done just both trust and trustee have to be approved .. This process has added a couple of extra month's for stamps to get approval.
I believe that you can legally amend your trust to remove all other trustees apart from yourself, make your purchase(s) while only you are the trustee, and then after receipt of your goods you can legally amend your trust again to add trustees. I have 6 trustees, all of which are valid concealed carry permit holders ... but because they are scattered around the country, it's a PITA to transfer NFA items into the trust, now ... unless I elect to take the above approach.

Welcome to the idiocy that is ATF-41F … which added cost, time, and bureaucratic overhead to an estate planning solution … most of which can be legally circumvented by making yourself the only trustee while you buy.
 

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The only concern doing it that was it's an additional $200.00 tax stamp to change from individual to a trust to add additional people to a trust, background checks and fingerprints for trustees and the wait starts all over again. Trusts will change wait times from about 6 months to close to a year and that's if your lucky. Why to not just go trust route the 1st time and find a local dealer that does E-froms. Also one with a shooting range or one that will meet you with your kids while there waiting in NFA jail. If your not a patient person I just don't think NFA items are for you.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
The only concern doing it that was it's an additional $200.00 tax stamp to change from individual to a trust to add additional people to a trust, background checks and fingerprints for trustees and the wait starts all over again. Trusts will change wait times from about 6 months to close to a year and that's if your lucky. Why to not just go trust route the 1st time and find a local dealer that does E-froms. Also one with a shooting range or one that will meet you with your kids while there waiting in NFA jail. If your not a patient person I just don't think NFA items are for you.
I already have a trust -- for the same reason you do (built-in estate planning). Thus, I think you misunderstood what I meant. I wasn't suggesting someone buy as an individual and than transfer into a trust (which accomplishes absolutely nothing, since you'd still have to go through all the hassles to get things into the trust, later). Rather, I was suggesting that a trust can be legally amended to have only one trustee (the human buyer) and beneficiary (also the human buyer) such that there's only one set of prints, photos, and the like associated with it at the time of purchase. In my case doing so is less costly (only the notary public fee and cost associated with my photo/prints) and significantly less cumbersome (no need to coordinate with 5 other people across the country) than coordinating prints and photos for a total of 6 trustees who are spread out across the United States of America.


Frankly, I wish the ATF would accept copies of valid, state-issued concealed carry licenses in lieu of photos/prints -- much like they do for NICs checks here in NC. It would save them time/effort AND encourage trustees who have prints on file and pre-done SBI checks. But that makes lots of sense -- which explains why the ATF isn't doing it. (When did a government agency do anything that made sense?)
 

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Where in this thread did/do you see that? I'm asking because I didn't recall anyone stating that … so then when you mentioned it I went and looked and STILL don't see anything to that effect, here.

What am I missing?

EDIT: Never mind, I finally found it; it was in RogueTS's 1st response. Perhaps he's seen someone with a Lage upper outshoot someone with an Uzi? *shrug*

There have been numerous machine gun shoots where the Lage uppered Macs have slaughtered the MP-5's and Colt smg's. Just have to look it up. I am not saying it is a superior designed gun; I am saying that the Lage upper had been designed to shoot so slow and stable that it had attained the ability to compete with the much better designed MP-5's and Colts.
 

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I'm just not sure where your getting your info. Popular rumors or believe it or not ?
By the way I do have a little hands on experience
Oh ! when you say just look it up with your statement, this is what pops up in Google

'The MAC-10 Was an Over-Hyped Hunk of Junk’

But I'll keep looking :D
Mabe you can help me with a link. :confused: I'm a little better with guns than computers
I'm sorry I just can't stop. Rogue started it
 

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Ok; I'll poke the bear. LOL :D

I would have to hunt up the information which consists of reports and even some videos of competition shoots. I cannot say I was there and saw the actual scores. I guess they could be lying but I doubt it. The key word in "The MAC-10 Was an Over-Hyped Hunk of Junk" is "Was". These people spent a lot of time and effort trying to get something that worked and the videos seem to have proved they met with some success.


This also was not in the last few years either; it has been some time ago but the mp5 design has not been changed so I would gather that it still holds true today.

The point is also not worth my time to dig up the stuff I have seen in the past to prove a point. One can either believe I saw these or not. That is their prerogative.

Would I rather have an MP 5 or a Mac? I of course would rather have the MP 5. It is a much nicer smg but that has no bearing on whether or not somebody with some skills and effort could not design an upper that would make the Mac a competitive smg in sub gun shoots.

PS: I also have a tinkling of hands on experience myself. ;)
 
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