[katie5805]

Last time shooting it, shot Colt Combat Commander very well at 8 yds. Decided to go to 10 yds. today....shot awful! All my misses were high - not rt. or left, just straight up high! Gun seemed to flip more than I think it should.


Could I not be locking wrists properly? I think I am, but maybe not?? I use more grip pressure with weak (left for me) hand, and lock (I think) my wrists as I present the gun to the target.


I know locking wrists is important...and tips, advice appreciated. Have been shooting 16 months.


BTW...don't seem to have this problem with my PPQ5, and am pretty accurate at 10 yds. with it.

 

[imaoldfart]

Evening, Katie Joe. Muzzle flip really isn't going to affect the point of bullet impact, cuz the bullet is long gone before the muzzle EVER starts to move.

Here's some pretty neat photos.

 

[grumpy1]

Did you shoot both the PPQ and Colt today and results were great with PPQ but not with Colt?

Were you rapid firing like 2, 3 or more rounds a second or more casual pace focusing more on accuracy?

Locking wrists helps with faster shooting but if you were shooting a more casual pace it should not make much difference if locking wrists or not.

Could be you are not as used to the Colt as the PPQ and need more time with the Colt. For now I would try shooting Colt for accuracy taking your time focusing on the basics and being deliberate making each shot count focusing on aligning sights and the front sight on center of target and then a smooth trigger press without moving the other fingers in your strong hand. I like a firm grip with my strong hand, about like a firm handshake, pinching the pistol grip front to back within my strong hand with my strong hand high up on the frame.

Try this drill to see if anything is going on with recoil anticipation when firing your Colt maybe causing you to break your wrists up just before hammer drop. Also a couple videos I like on grip. Good grip is crucial and you should not have to re adjust grip between shots. Anything you can do to increase shoulder, arm, and forearm strength will probably improve your shooting. I used dumb bells and Mummyfit grip strengthener.

 

[DeutschlandUberAlles]

Evening, Katie Joe. Muzzle flip really isn't going to affect the point of bullet impact, cuz the bullet is long gone before the muzzle EVER starts to move.

Here's some pretty neat photos.

Nice pics OF.


Like the gun too, a Para 14.45 (middle gun in my avatar)

 

[WaterDR]

Are you using a “combat” sight picture or a 6:00? Willing to bet that if you change to the later, you will be hitting where you want.

I suspect as others have mentioned, it’s not flip, but possibly simple sight alignment.

 

[katie5805]

Maybe a grip problem was the problem?

Did you shoot both the PPQ and Colt today and results were great with PPQ but not with Colt?

Were you rapid firing like 2, 3 or more rounds a second or more casual pace focusing more on accuracy?

Locking wrists helps with faster shooting but if you were shooting a more casual pace it should not make much difference if locking wrists or not.

Could be you are not as used to the Colt as the PPQ and need more time with the Colt. For now I would try shooting Colt for accuracy taking your time focusing on the basics and being deliberate making each shot count focusing on aligning sights and the front sight on center of target and then a smooth trigger press without moving the other fingers in your strong hand. I like a firm grip with my strong hand, about like a firm handshake, pinching the pistol grip front to back within my strong hand with my strong hand high up on the frame.

Try this drill to see if anything is going on with recoil anticipation when firing your Colt maybe causing you to break your wrists up just before hammer drop. Also a couple videos I like on grip. Good grip is crucial and you should not have to re adjust grip between shots. Anything you can do to increase shoulder, arm, and forearm strength will probably improve your shooting. I used dumb bells and Mummyfit grip strengthener


No, not shooting the Q also- just Colt. Tonight, I pulled out the Colt, put in snap cap to dryfire....I realized I did not have my dominant hand crammed up as high as possible under the beaver tail...when I did so, it felt like I had more control of the gun. what do you think? Also, the Colt and 1911 is new to me, and you are correct that I probably need more practice with it.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxyTFzgWjhk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJrA7wMXuuQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz4HFTW22ok&t=1s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTLi6_96t1o

No, just shooting Colt today. Tonight dry firing the Colt, I realized I did not have my dominant hand crammed up under beaver tail...when I did that, I seemed feel that I had more control of the gun...so maybe that was a big part of the problem??

 

[WaterDR]

You will certainly get less flip that way. Shoot high? Not so sure but regardless, it’s a good thing to correct.

 

[halfmoonclip]

Don't mean to argue with OF's really great series of pictures, but I have to disagree. Yeah, the muzzle does climb while the bullet is in the bore; the gun is actually describing a small arc.

The change isn't great , but it doesn't have to be. Don't believe me, but get to the safe and put a straight edge across the sights...you'll find the bore axis is lower than the the line of sight across the sights.
The gun is already rising to the line of sight as the bullet exits the bore...the phenomenon is more noticeable in harder kicking guns, and a hogleg .45 is an extreme example.
For the OP, a couple thots'. Have you tried some dry snaps to see what happens when the trigger breaks? When live firing, have someone else load some random dummies in the mag. Watch what happens when the gun goes 'click'.
There is a form of flinching called 'heeling', which happens when you lean into the gun butt anticipating the shot. If you're not getting a good group up high, that would be my guess.
In a related matter, that 'riding the safety' thing isn't necessary, and is complicating your grip. Just take a firm hold, as high as you can, and squeeze the trigger.
Moon

 

[imaoldfart]

Here's the video....not seeing any muzzle rise here, until the bullet is loooong gone.

 

[Jaake]

While I’m sure muzzle flip isn’t a contributing factor.... when zeroing in scopes or sights on my rifle from a rest the front is never supported and moves from the recoil.
Also when the sights are zeroed at 100 yards da aiming closer results in higher impacts due to the arc or trajectory of the bullet.

Could the difference in the OP’s impact be that at the first distance the bullet hasn’t risen very much yet, but at the further distance it had reached its highest point in its arc. Where is the point of impact another 10 or 20 yards out?

 

[chandler5566]

Could the difference in the OP’s impact be that at the first distance the bullet hasn’t risen very much yet, but at the further distance it had reached its highest point in its arc. Where is the point of impact another 10 or 20 yards out?

Not sure what you mean when you say the bullet hasn't risen? The bullet immediately begins slowing and dropping as soon as it exits unless somehow configured to produce lift.

 

[imaoldfart]

But Chandler....don't make me post a picture.

Spend some time on this site Ballistic Calculator GunData.org enter some data and let it calculate the arc.

 

[chandler5566]

Here's the video....not seeing any muzzle rise here, until the bullet is loooong gone.

Sure wish I could hold that steady when fired. Maybe that's why the holes are so damn far apart!

 

[halfmoonclip]

Jaake, she went from 24' to 30'; doubt that 12" will make any difference; your point would be well taken at greater distances.


OF, let's stop and think about this...considering a small variation at the muzzle will make a much larger difference at the target; the longer the range, the greater the variance. At some point, bullet arc makes a difference, but at the OP's distances, it's essentially a straight line.


We're talking a muzzle rise of a fraction of an inch, a variance not easily judged in your visual.


This varies from gun to gun; low-bore-axis/mild recoil 9mm Glock 19s only have a slight variance in sight/bore line alignment. Energetic kickers, like my snub alloy .45 Smith revolver, have a much greater variance.


But let's not argue about what we can measure; put a straight edge across your sights and have a look. If the shot ran parallel to the sights, it would strike noticeably low.


In that vein, as a general thing, faster bullets out of handguns tend to shoot lower as compared to slower brethren out of the same pistol. This is due to the pistol having more time to rise while the slower bullet is in the bore.

Also in that vein, a Ransom Rest is the best way to evaluate a pistol's ultimate accuracy, but it likely won't shoot to the same point of impact as the same gun held by a human. It's all about the recoil impulse, and how the gun is able to move.


In many ways, it's a wonder we can hit anything with a handgun, considering the dynamics of what happens when the gun goes off.
Moon

 

[Jaake]

I agree with you that the trajectory is amplified in the case of a rifle. I have zero experience with 1911’s. And very little with .45 cal assuming that’s what cal it is.

But I shoot the snot out of my 9mm’s. At least twice a week, sometimes three or four. With my 4” ppq at 75 feet my point of impact is reliably my point of aim - for me that is impact is where the front sight sits. At closer distances like 15 feet (forgive me buy the 2 ranges I frequent use feet) my point of impact is just above the front sight dot. Call it what you want- pumpkin on a post, six o’clock hold....what ever the correct term is. But there is a difference for me, with the ppq. With my pps it’s less noticeable to the point that I might be an inch or so off. The same with my FN9c.

Considering my lack of experience with the caliber and pistol is why I was asking. Seemed logical.... it’s probably not something we will have ver figure out.

 

[halfmoonclip]

Jaake, no doubt that is true, and knowing where a pistol hits is a big help.


What I'm saying is, what the sights are looking at, and what the bore is looking at, are two different things. The gun's rise in recoil is what reconciles one with the other.
Moon

 

[imaoldfart]

Moon, I was just responding to Jaake's post. And, he's right. Every bullet is going to fly an arc, either before, during or after it reaches the 'zero' distance. In the case of a closer zero, such as 30 feet, the bullet will intersect the line of sight at 30 feet (there's our zero), continue climbing and at some point start back down....flying an arc. The bullet will, once again cross the line of sight, (lets say at 60 feet) and continue on until it hits the ground.

Now Katie Joes's problem is more than likely exactly what WD suggested. Walther's use a combat sight picthure and his Colt is probably using a 6 o'clock hold. So, if he's using the combat sight picture when shooting his Colt, he'll be hitting high. He might want to try a 6 o'clock hold on the colt.

 

[halfmoonclip]

You're missing my point entirely. If you look at the bore axis vs the line of sight of the sights, they will never intersect. The bore axis is lower than that of the sights. That's why the gun's rise in recoil (while the boolit is still in the bore) is necessary to make the lines intersect.
Yeah, there's some arc going on, but at 30' it simply doesn't signify. At close range, the bullet's path is close enough to a straight line not to matter.
For the OP, the issue is heeling. Nothing high tech; she is simply leaning into the grip. A sin for which many have been guilty, moi included.
Moon

 

[imaoldfart]

Moon, with all due respect, I DO get your point, I just happen to disagree.

I leave you with this picture from Dawson Precision.

 

[halfmoonclip]

Partner, the situation is exactly as shown in the upper picture...the bore axis is lower than the sight axis. The diagram shows how to adjust the front sight, and is correct as regards making corrections.
The diagram is also exaggerated to make a point of how the correction works.


Please, have you tried putting a ruler on the sights of a couple of your pistols?


Until you look at the line of the sights, and the line of the bore axis, you will not understand. Think of it this way; if the sights and the bore were exactly parallel, the bullet would still strike low by the distance between the sights and the bore.



Let's not confuse what happens in rifles at longer ranges, where the arc of the bullet's path rises and then falls again relative to the line of sight, and what happens in pistols.


At shorter distance, there is no reason for the bullet's path to climb, save for the recoil of the gun raising the muzzle. Were you to lock the pistol in position mechanically, the gun would shoot significantly low.


Go get a ruler!
Moon