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Loaded or Unloaded? - How do you carry?

  • Loaded Chamber

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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have some familiarity with Israeli Tactical shooting...they carry full mag but unloaded chamber and use what some call the "slingshot" method. Not popular here in the states but I was wondering how you carry if you do....
 

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Loaded but decocked. The very slight time it takes to slingshot the slide if someone is either pointing or firing at you is too long of a delay in my book. But hey, If the Israeli's carry that way it's hard to argue as good as they are at what they do. I just wonder which and how many Israeli's actually carry that way as a name and a method may be just who came up with the tactic, not an adoption by a majority in the country. Do you have any info on that Jake, just wondering.

Rockets Out....
 

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1 loaded in the chamber - sometimes cocked and sometimes decocked. I used to carry cocked all the time when I first got 'em, but the DA trigger is still lighter than other guns w/ a hammer and the traditional DA/SA. So, I don't mind it as much now. I now have it decocked usually.
 

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why carry an empty chamber on a modern handgun? i can't see the advantage provided you're not an idiot and have proper trigger discipline.

the israeli method sounds like a good way to get yourself killed. in a struggle, it is very possible you may not have both hands available to rack the slide and you're left wielding an expensive, yet poorly designed club
.

i always carry hammer (or striker) uncocked over a loaded chamber. my DA/SA CZ75 P-01 gets carried with the hammer at the half-cock notch, somewhat shortening and lightening the DA pull, but it is still definitely a DA pull.

if you are uncomfortable carrying a loaded pistol, perhaps you shouldn't be carrying to begin with. it's not for everyone.

frye
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Okay here is some info that I am familiar with...check out the two sites below...

http://www.isa-isa.com/index.html

http://www.amazon.com/exec....details

Frye...While I agree with your assessment...I wouldn't say the Israelis qualify as idiots or as to not having proper trigger discipline. I just find it an interesting form of combat point shooting. A local range here in town offers a course in this a couple of times a year. One of the instructors is retired Army CID who trained in Israel. This is his preferred style of carry.

I was just curious if anyone else was familiar with this technique...I have an opportunity to take this class later this year, as well as, having a training session with the head firearms instructor of Louisville Metro PD...I would like to see the differences in styles.
 

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I don't think the Isrealis carry that way anymore. I seem to have read somewhere that they finally got some brains about that idea.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I don't think the Isrealis carry that way anymore.
Now that would be good to know...if this was the case and it is an outdated method that would determine whether or not I sign up for the class. I have dropped a line on Glock talk to see what else I can find out...Except for the local Metro PD I don't have any other contacts with whom I may compare notes....
 

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i wasn't actually calling israelis idiots.  they may have had their reasons for carrying in that condition, but i can't see any tactical advantage in it (other than a 'gun-grab' situation).

i was stating that there is no reason to carry an empty chamber unless one is an idiot and/or has no trigger discipline. this was referring to civilians carrying concealed.

frye
 

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Originally, that method of carry was developed because of the wide variety of weapons they had in inventory when the country was first founded. Guns from all over the world with safety's in different positions. some safe was up, some safe was down, some single action, some double. Many of the handguns were manufactured during WWII. The only real way to train was to use the safety off, empty chamber, draw...Load...Fire method. Many of the folks being taught to handle a weapon were refugees from Europe who had just been freed from the camps and had no arms experience at all. can you think of a better way to train hundreds of people to use a handgun in a short period of time? and you have to train them to use any handgun that may be given to them regardless of make and type of action.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Frye,
My apologies and I did not mean to offend you. This is one of the most civil gun forums that I visit and like it that way...Your point is well taken and I concur. I agree that training and discipline is the key. Now others on different forums do make fun of the Israelis and their method and it seems that this technique may be out-dated. Most that I have found DO NOT like the Israeli method...I have no real opinion one way or the other but I will continue to research the matter.
 

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no offense taken, jake. i did need to clarify my statement though as it didn't read right the first time.

according to madecov's info, the israeli method was developed to accomodate the firearm ignorant (although not necessarily 'idiots'
). for someone familiar and competent with a firearm, the israeli method is unnecessary and possibly dangerous to your safety if you CCW or use a weapon for home defense.

FWIW, i've never met a pistol that i couldn't learn the manual of arms on in just a few minutes or less. same with assembly/disassembly. i can't be that much smarter than the average bear.

i hard to believe a military couldn't train even the most firearm ignorant people proper operating procedures and had to resort to training them with weapons with empty chambers. it's mildly mind-boggling.

i'm of the opinion that if you can't bring your pistol into action one-handed, you might as well carry a baton or a brick. at least you can use those with only one hand
. and if you can't safely carry a weapon with a loaded chamber, you are an idiot and shouldn't carry or own a pistol
.

frye
 

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that sounds good for the range.  how many rounds should i plan on firing in the match and what is the entry fee?  bluegrass is in the same building as the old ray's range, right?

thanks for the link, i made it through about 3 pages before the forum shutdown to back up their database.  some good points on both sides of the argument, but not enough from the empty chamber crowd to sway my position for civilian CCW holders.  

in military and police situations with an exposed sidearm in a potentially dangerous area, an unchambered pistol may make some sense because of weapons retention concerns.  or possibly in the israeli situation with untrained, incompetent personal and no standardized weapon system, this may keep them from shooting each other by accident during live weapon handling drills.

but for the average joe CCW (with some training and competent gun handling skills), retention before the draw is not an issue due to the concealment of the weapon.  during/after the draw retention issues are identical as the israeli technique practicer.

for a CCW holder, the element of surprise (concealment) and how quickly one can respond with appropriate action are probably their best friends.  anything that compromises my concealment or slows/complicates my potential response is to be avoided.  no matter how much one trains at israeli technique, the same person training the same amount with a full chamber/no rack draw will have the pistol on target and ready to fire quicker.

once i get my pistol clear of the holster and clothing (which can be tricky enough), i'm a DA trigger pull away from action.  time/situation permitting, manually cocking the hammer/striker will give me condition 0, the preferred condition for accruacy in a DA/SA weapon.

frye
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] how many rounds should i plan on firing in the match and what is the entry fee?  bluegrass is in the same building as the old ray's range, right?
$10.00...bring 2 boxes that will be plenty. Usually shoot 3 rounds of about 20 shots each...

Israeli method seems interesting but it won't be my only tool in my bag of tricks...
 

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A concern I'd have with the Israli method is the racket involved in chambering a round. I can see some situations that you'd want to deploy without announcing it. The sound is rather distinctive.
 

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Madecov,

Is on the right track concerning the Israelis . One of the finest weapons ever developed was the Uzi sub-machine gun. As most of you know this weapon system was developed around the “open Bolt” system. This type of system was needed because of the mishaps during the war where Israeli paratroopers were injured by their own weapons jumping from planes. Many times a “closed bolt” system weapon [ with a round loaded in the chamber ] would fire upon the troopers hitting the ground at parachute speeds. Enter the UZI – where fully loaded – the bolt is locked back. Since the UZI has no firing pin as we know it { it is just a “bump” machined into the solid steel bolt… there are no small firing-pin springs to compress or weaken due to G- forces. I was [ a long time ago ] a certified instructor in the use of the UZI sub-machine gun and I can tell you it is one beautifully designed weapon and very accurate on full auto at 25 yds.
So I guess Israeli “old school” teachers followed the UZI model………..and taught their students not to have a round in the chamber. I can’t say if they follow that model today….. because as has been pointed out here – modern pistols are designed to carry safely while fully loaded. I will admit I still cringe a little when I de-cock the P-99 indoors after loading it. – smile -.


JF.
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (fryeg7 @ Jan. 01 2006,21:03)]why carry an empty chamber on a modern handgun?  i can't see the advantage provided you're not an idiot and have proper trigger discipline.

the israeli method sounds like a good way to get yourself killed.  in a struggle, it is very possible you may not have both hands available to rack the slide and you're left wielding an expensive, yet poorly designed club :D .
..
..
frye
Loaded or unloaded chamber seems to be a matter of very little consideration for most of the voters. I got the impression that everybody here on the board is facing the same exact threat from the world. This sounds to me somewhat unreal. I can’t imagine that each one of you is surrounded by armed robbers who just looking for a chance to kill/wound/abuse you. I believe that in most situations the proper thing to do is to hide or run away and use the gained time to analyze the situation. Shouting and screaming might be a better response than drawing a handgun in many situations.
Where I live there are suicide bomber and a loaded gun will do very little to save you. Most places are saturated with people carrying assault rifles or handguns, so you want to be sure that you shot the right target, and believe me choosing your target in such a situation is quite complicated.
To make a long story short, a loaded chamber doesn’t always benefit you and in many cases adds a potential safety issue.
 

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My personal preferance with my P99AS is loaded chamber and decocked. With my 1911 its condition 1. I carry this way because I feel that my guns are safe to be carried in this way, becuase I feel that I am safe to carry this way, becuase I feel that it offers an advantage in a grappling situation and most importantly because I train this way. The safety systems on most modern handguns are more than sufficient to eliminate the possibility of an AD. If you train regularly anf follow the 4 rules you minimize the chances of an ND. As far as tactical advantage goes; I feel it wise to be able to draw and fire one handed. While I like to think I dont live in condition white, I also am not naive enough to think that someone wont be able to sneak up on me and try to take advantage of the situation. In those situations or where the other hand is occupied, as in holding your wife's hand, pushing her to the ground in a SHTF situation or even carrying your infant, it would be nice to be able to draw and fire with a single hand.

zeevbi,

The threats that we prepare for, but pray we never have to face, are very real. There are people out there who will kill you for your shoes or simply for the fun of it. To ignore that fact is stupidity at its best. There is a saying that goes: Prepare for the worst and pray for the best (or something like that). The best thing is to not be in a situation where lethal force, or force for that matter is an issue. After that its having the time to disengage and make calm and collected decisions from behind cover. The worst is being surprised by a criminal and needing to immediately draw and engage them or be faced with the death of your wife, kids and yourself. If you only prepare yourself for the better situations i.e. being able to scream and run away to safety while ignoring the worst case scenario's youre doing yourself a disservice. If youre ready for the worst, you will always be able to handle the best, the reverse in NOT true. The only time a loaded chamber is a potential safety issue, aside from any mechanical issues with the gun itself, is when the operator has a brain fart. Having a loaded chamber does not mean that you have to use it. Level thinking and an ability to make good decisions is a prerequisite. But then loaded or unloaded, if you cant stay relatively calm in a bad situation, youre going to get yourself into trouble.
 
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