Little Berettas

17611 Views 100 Replies 8 Participants Last post by Que, Dec 25, 2007

Que

Discussion Starter · Oct 8, 2007

All of this Bond talk, naturally associated with the PPK and P99, got me to pull the pin on a Beretta 1934 and 1935 as I posted elsewhere. And while Bond's original gun in the early novels, the 418, is planned, it stated me looking at some of today's contemporary pocket Berettas. This has all coincided with my father-in-laws comment that he really enjoys shooting a .25 auto. He's small in stature, and while he can handle a 9mm or .40 very nicely, he has the most fun with with my P22. So, with Bond on my mind and my FIL's comment, this past Saturday I ran down the the shop and picked up a cute little Beretta Model 21A in .25ACP, used but like new. I think my FIL will enjoy it as a guest gun when he visits from out of state in November. We (along with my BIL) will spend at least one day at the range, and as a host I always like to accommodate my guests

Plus, I have really fallen for this little gun. I think that I may well add a Tomcat, the .32 ACP version with the more full slide. Add to that a DeSantis "Trickster" pocket holster and 60 gr. JHP or Winchester Silvertip JHPs and it isn't a bad little package.

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/8363/3032smaxirm8.jpgTomcat

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Deputy

· #21 · Oct 9, 2007 (Edited)

Searcher: I've already given up on the Taurus. Gonna go to my gunshop tomorrow and pick up my CZ rifle and see what a NAA Mini-Revolver will cost. I'd like to get one with two cylinders....22 mag and .22 LR.

Que

Discussion Starter · #22 · Oct 10, 2007

Without spending huge bucks on a Rohrbaugh I don't see too many really good pocket guns out there the size that we're talking about. The Kel-Tecs seem to have just as many if not more problems than the Tomcat. What a shame. A Tomcat with a DeSantis Trickster (makes a gun look like a wallet in your pocket) would have been a nice combo. These little pocket guns all seem to have issues. Maybe it's quallity control or an attitude that the same production standards aren't necessary for such a small gun, or, there are design issues inherent for such a small gun. For the $360 that the Tomcat would have cost me I expect more. Part of me says that I could work with the gun, but a crapped out trigger isn't something that you can work with.

Searcher, as to Beretta customer service, the couple times that I have contacted them via email I got no quick response. I learned they are easiest to get ahold of by phone and I was put right through to a tech.

As to Taurus, luckily I have never needed customer service other than to get information (I just called them) but I have heard that it isn't up to par. Fortunately the guns that I have bought from them have been excellent. I suspect that little PT22 may suffer from what I described above about pocket guns.

This morning I'll run over to the gun shop and switch the layaway over to either a Taurus 24/7 Pro or a Daewoo DP51, a gun that gets lots of high marks from what I've heard. I tend towards the 24/7 as I haven't had a good look at the Daewoo yet. Both full size guns will be less expensive than the Tomcat. I'm really bummed about the Tomcat. At least if the 21A .25ACP is crap I've only got $150 into it.

Q

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Deputy

· #23 · Oct 10, 2007

Que: I know that bummed feeling too. I would have grabbed a Tomcat too, but for guys telling me to check closer into it. Now I find out the nifty little Taurus could be a loser too.
From what I read the Kel-Tecs are plagued with that rimlock problem in .32 auto. Gotta do a magazine mod to solve the problem. I don't like rebuilding a brand new gun.

I checked on the NAA mini-revolvers and customer service seems to be quite excellent. Problems seem to be pretty rare too. For plinking at evil squirrels in my back yard or even for personal defense with the .22 magnum cylinder, it should be pretty cool. Definitely the ultimate in concealable. They even make a belt buckle for it!!!

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searcher451

· #24 · Oct 10, 2007

Que said:
Searcher, as to Beretta customer service, the couple times that I have contacted them via email I got no quick response. I learned they are easiest to get ahold of by phone and I was put right through to a tech. Q

Que: As to that, I sent off another email to Beretta USA last night, asking a) what in the wide, wide world of sports was going on, and b) why in the name of Freddy Krueger they couldn't be bothered to get back to me with some sort of preemptive response. This note came back with an automatic reply, generated by a bulky Beretta computer, no doubt, indicating that I didn't sign in between the dots ... and that is no exaggeration. Here it is:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Beretta Customer Support [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tue 10/09/2007 19:57
To:
Subject: Tomcat .32 ACP auto [Incident: 071XXX-XXX]

Your reply did not process correctly. Please REPLY to this message and
enter the text between the specified lines. Your message has been
attached.

[===> Please enter your reply below this line <===]

[===> Please enter your reply above this line <===]

==========================================================

It's one thing to have a worthless firearm. It's another to operate a customer service department that is at best inept and at worst worthless; in this case, the apparently are one and the same. And now, of course, more than 12 hours later, I still have yet to hear a thing, despite sending off the first distress flare last Sunday night.

Telephones? If they can't make a trigger that functions beyond 66 rounds, how in the world can they operate a telephone? Good grief.

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Que

Discussion Starter · #25 · Oct 10, 2007

Searcher, I'm with you. If they provide an email address for contact they should have the resources to respond in a timely fashion. I generally go right to the phone because so many ignore emails as if it is some kind of communication that can be ignored.

The Tomcat is now officially gone. I replaced it with a new Taurus 24/7 Pro that was $20 cheaper. I really wouldn't have minded spending $360 on the Tomcat if the quality was there. Oh well, just as well, I've wanted the 24/7 for a good while as the full size version of a gun that I happen to like quite a bit, and depend on, the PT111 MilPro.

BTW, quick question. What purpose does the half-cock hammer postion serve on a single action pistol?

Q

Deputy

· #26 · Oct 10, 2007

Que: I'll take a stab at the half cock question...I think it serves two purposes.

#1 as a form of safety some folks carried a round in the chamber and the 1911A1 with the 1/2 cock safety engaged. Unfortunately, it's not a very good form of safety, as dropping the gun could cause the hammer to over ride the 1/2 cock notch and the gun to fire.
#2 Nowadays it is there to "catch" the hammer if it is being manually cocked and the thumb slips off. For that purpose it serves fairly well. Although I've never had that kind of goofup when cocking my 1911s.

Oh yeah...in a single action revolver like the Colt SAA, the 1/2 cock position is used to load the weapon. You put it on 1/2 cock, flip open the side gate, and rotate the cylinder.

Que

Discussion Starter · #27 · Oct 10, 2007

Thanks Dep! So, I guess the 1911 doesn't have a hammer safety like some other guns have?

Q

Deputy

· #28 · Oct 10, 2007

Que said:
Thanks Dep! So, I guess the 1911 doesn't have a hammer safety like some other guns have?

Q

The Series 80 versions have a firing pin safety that guards against an accidental discharge should a loaded pistol be dropped onto a hard surface. Some folks complained about it messing up the trigger pull, so Colt brought out some older versions (Series 70) that don't have that device on them. Lots of the competition people removed the Series 80 safety system from their guns.
The other safetys ona Colt are the grip safety and the manual hammer lock thumb safety (it locks the hammer in the cocked position), plus the above-mentioned 1/2 cock safety. There is no "hammer drop" safety like on a PPK or Beretta 92, etc.

Que

Discussion Starter · #29 · Oct 10, 2007

I'd assume that my RIA Compact 1911 has no hammer safety. Best not to drop it with one in the chamber.

Q

Deputy

· #30 · Oct 10, 2007

Que said:
I'd assume that my RIA Compact 1911 has no hammer safety. Best not to drop it with one in the chamber.

Q

It probably doesn't have the Series 80 system. I think Colt has a patent on that. Your RIA is probably identical to Springfield Armory guns. Grip safety, thumb safety, and 1/2 cock safety. That the same system that Uncle Sam issued to the troops through two wars. It's pretty reliable. It would have to be dropped and fall and hit just a certain way for it to go off. And with the thumb safety engaged, it's not likely to happen. Possible, but not probable

searcher451

· #31 · Oct 10, 2007

Deputy said:
Que: I know that bummed feeling too. I would have grabbed a Tomcat too, but for guys telling me to check closer into it. Now I find out the nifty little Taurus could be a loser too.
From what I read the Kel-Tecs are plagued with that rimlock problem in .32 auto. Gotta do a magazine mod to solve the problem. I don't like rebuilding a brand new gun.
I checked on the NAA mini-revolvers and customer service seems to be quite excellent. Problems seem to be pretty rare too. For plinking at evil squirrels in my back yard or even for personal defense with the .22 magnum cylinder, it should be pretty cool. Definitely the ultimate in concealable. They even make a belt buckle for it!!!

Dep: I like the looks of the belt buckle, at least.

For what it's worth, it's now going on Wednesday afternoon and STILL no word from Beretta USA regarding the Tomcat, even though I've sent two additional e-mails their way today. This is not the way to run a railroad, nor an airline, nor a gun company.

In a word: Phooey.

Deputy

· #32 · Oct 11, 2007

Searcher: Get on the phone PRONTO!!!

I ordered the NAA revolver today. May arrive tomorrow. It's a combo gun in .22LR and .22 magnum. Total cost was $235.95 including tax, which is a pretty good deal. I fired my CZ rifle with one of the Aguila Colibri rounds that is loaded with just primer. HA! Like a silencer is on the gun. I've heard louder ladyfinger firecrackers!!!! I make more noise slamming the garage door. Very cool!!!

Que

Discussion Starter · #33 · Oct 11, 2007

Dep, NAA seems to have a small semi-auto and their own round, the .32 NAA which is a .380 necked down to a .32. Have you heard anything about this little gun?

I think I'm going to go back and look at Kel-Tecs. It seems that there's a generational split as to reliability/quality so there may be something there. It was the same thing with my Taurus PT111 with the first generation guns having severe problems and the problems solved with the second and third generation, but the bad rap following the gun. The Internet compounds that effect.

Q

Deputy

· #34 · Oct 11, 2007

Que:Yep...heard of their little auto. I guess it's a clone of the Seecamp. Haven't heard much good or bad about it. That may be a good thing

I have heard about the new .32 round on the Seecamp forum. They didn't seem all that impressed with it. There was a question of whether the Seecamp would come out in that caliber. Seecamp said for the minimal gain in performance, it wasn't worth the effort.
I heard that the large caliber Kel-Tecks were decent.

Que

Discussion Starter · #35 · Oct 11, 2007

I heard that the large caliber Kel-Tecks were decent.

I'm going to be looking real hard at the PF9. If you buy one at the R0 serial numbers and newer the gun should be fine. There are still a few fixes necessary such as a metal mag release and a metal follower, but those are minor. I've compared the size to my PT111 and found the PF9 to be conisderably smaller, especially where it counts in width and heigth. Now I suppose I should compare it to the PPS.

Q

Deputy

· #36 · Oct 11, 2007

Que said:
I'm going to be looking real hard at the PF9. If you buy one at the R0 serial numbers and newer the gun should be fine. There are still a few fixes necessary such as a metal mag release and a metal follower, but those are minor. I've compared the size to my PT111 and found the PF9 to be conisderably smaller, especially where it counts in width and heigth. Now I suppose I should compare it to the PPS.

Q

Are a metal mag release and metal follower available for purchase?

searcher451

· #37 · Oct 11, 2007

Not that anyone should care much at this point, other than me, but I am STILL waiting to hear back from Beretta USA regading the problems with the Tomcat with the crapped-out trigger after 66 rounds that were first reported via email and their stinkin' website last Sunday. If that doesn't tell you all you need to know about Beretta USA and their #$&(#*^(#* Tomcat, well then, I for one can't help you.

Que

Discussion Starter · #38 · Oct 11, 2007

Deputy said:
Are a metal mag release and metal follower available for purchase?

Yes, apparently as an aftermarket item at this board:
http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl

I looked at the comparison between the PF9 and the PPS, and the only major differences are in the lenght of the gun (PPS .45 longer) and the weight witht he PPS quite a bit heavier. I suppose those small difference seem irrelevant, but if you let your criterion creep before long you'll be at a Desert Eagle

I'm going to get the PPS anyway down the road so I might as well try the PF9 for less than $300.

And Seracher, I care. I own seven Berettas (21A, 1934, 1935, PX4, 9000S, 92-Two, CX4)

Q

Deputy

· #39 · Oct 11, 2007

Searcher: I care too. Have you called them on the phone at all?

Que: If you grab the Kel-Tec please post feedback on it's performance.

Que

Discussion Starter · #40 · Oct 11, 2007

I also care because I hate seeing someone get screwed over. When we buy a gun with a warranty we pay money for it. It is of value and we have purchased that protection, and often it is a factor in the decision-making process that led up to buying the gun. In providing customer service Beretta isn't doing you any favors. They are merely living up to their end of the agreement providing you for something for which you have pai value, or are protected under the law. Something that I believe very strongly is that anyone can make a mistake, but, I judge a man/company on how he deals with the mistake.

As to the Kel-Tec, I believe I will try the PF9. Hopefully next week I'll have the funds to pick it up.

This will actually be, to a degree, a return to a gun that I once owned, the Grendel P10 http://hometown.aol.com/jtjersey/Grendel/grendel.htm This gun was the direct predecessor to the Kel-Tec and was made by the same designer, a guy whose name I believe was Kelgren. The Grendel had a lousy DAO trigger, but after it went back to the factory it was downright nice. I think I sold it as I couldn't get into loading a pistol by a stripper clip.

Q

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