Little Berettas

Hey guys, thanks for your comments and cautions. I've checked out many opinions on the Tomcat and there seems to be a hit or miss as to reliability (more hits than misses) and at least two versions of this gun, a first and second generation. There is enough of a dichotomy of opinion that this may account for what it going on.

Searcher, you didn't say if the gun was new or used, so it's age may be a factor. You also didn't (as I recall) mention which ammos you tried. Many folks have said the same two things about the Tomcat: 1. it is ammo finicky, at least initially, and, 2. it requires a break-in period. Many of the negative reports I've read go something like this: "I ran 200 rounds through the gun and expereinced X many FTEs. I'm through with this gun". That is premature for any gun. Some also think that a gun should shoot perfectly right out of the box, but many of these pocket guns have a record of requiring some break-in time.

A trigger breaking is another matter, but those things can and do happen with many guns, basically quality control flukes. It happens and isn't something I've heard about with other Tomcats (not to say that it hasn't happened). as an example, three Bersa Thunders came into the local shop with bad triggers that required repair before the guns could be sold. It happens.

But, as to the Tomcat, there are so many reports of this gun being perfectly reliable and surprisingly accurate that I can't dismiss it. If I pull a lemon then it will go back to Beretta. I've got plenty of other guns to shoot.

As to ammo, two that I've seen referenced as being excellent are Winchester Silvertips and Fiocchi 73 grain FMJ or 60 gr. SJHP. BTW, watch out for Sellier and Bellot as it is potentially too hot for the gun, or so I'm told. Considering the extraction system I'd avoid any aluminum cased ammo.

I've said it many times, and I'll say it again: using a gun is a system that has three components: the shooter, the ammo, and the gun itself. Like any system optimal function can be achieved with adjustment and compromise. Guns can be tweaked, ammo can be changed, and the shooter himself, probably the least adjustable, can bring about the best function by bringing about the appropriate change(s). Sometimes it takes work.

Q

Hey Dep. Gotta love Numrich. They can be a bit pricey, but it's good to know that they are there.

I also looked at that Taurus .22. Kinda cool like the Beretta.

Speaking of Taurus, I'm now having second thoughts about that Tomcat. $360 is a lot to gamble. I get one switch with a layaway so I might walk away from the Tomcat and switch a Taurus 24/7 Pro in 9mm for it. The Taurus is actually a bit cheaper. I've had nothing but great guns from Taurus (PT92, PT111 MilPro, PT145 MilPro, The Judge). Searcher's use of WWB worries me. It's FMJ and should work fine. I've never had a gun even hiccup on WWB. That trigger problem also appears to be a little more widespread than I'd thought.

Bye-bye Tomcat. Just called the shop. Gone.

Thanks guys, I have a feeling you did me a big favor.

Q

Without spending huge bucks on a Rohrbaugh I don't see too many really good pocket guns out there the size that we're talking about. The Kel-Tecs seem to have just as many if not more problems than the Tomcat. What a shame. A Tomcat with a DeSantis Trickster (makes a gun look like a wallet in your pocket) would have been a nice combo. These little pocket guns all seem to have issues. Maybe it's quallity control or an attitude that the same production standards aren't necessary for such a small gun, or, there are design issues inherent for such a small gun. For the $360 that the Tomcat would have cost me I expect more. Part of me says that I could work with the gun, but a crapped out trigger isn't something that you can work with.

Searcher, as to Beretta customer service, the couple times that I have contacted them via email I got no quick response. I learned they are easiest to get ahold of by phone and I was put right through to a tech.

As to Taurus, luckily I have never needed customer service other than to get information (I just called them) but I have heard that it isn't up to par. Fortunately the guns that I have bought from them have been excellent. I suspect that little PT22 may suffer from what I described above about pocket guns.

This morning I'll run over to the gun shop and switch the layaway over to either a Taurus 24/7 Pro or a Daewoo DP51, a gun that gets lots of high marks from what I've heard. I tend towards the 24/7 as I haven't had a good look at the Daewoo yet. Both full size guns will be less expensive than the Tomcat. I'm really bummed about the Tomcat. At least if the 21A .25ACP is crap I've only got $150 into it.

Q

I also care because I hate seeing someone get screwed over. When we buy a gun with a warranty we pay money for it. It is of value and we have purchased that protection, and often it is a factor in the decision-making process that led up to buying the gun. In providing customer service Beretta isn't doing you any favors. They are merely living up to their end of the agreement providing you for something for which you have pai value, or are protected under the law. Something that I believe very strongly is that anyone can make a mistake, but, I judge a man/company on how he deals with the mistake.

As to the Kel-Tec, I believe I will try the PF9. Hopefully next week I'll have the funds to pick it up.

This will actually be, to a degree, a return to a gun that I once owned, the Grendel P10 http://hometown.aol.com/jtjersey/Grendel/grendel.htm This gun was the direct predecessor to the Kel-Tec and was made by the same designer, a guy whose name I believe was Kelgren. The Grendel had a lousy DAO trigger, but after it went back to the factory it was downright nice. I think I sold it as I couldn't get into loading a pistol by a stripper clip.

Q

Searcher, it isn't only Beretta. Friday afternoon I had a perplexing experience with Taurus. Their customer service rep consisted of a young woman who knew virtually nothing about firearms. I called them regarding a PT145, brand new, that has a 4mm by 1mm paper thin depression in a rifling groove at the 6 o'clock position right where the rifling begins. After taking my info she paused for a good while and said that she had no idea if this would be an issue for concern and that I should send the gun to them. Knowing that Tuarus is notorious for keeping guns almost forever I asked her if I could talk to a tech, just as I would with any other company that I've dealt with. She said that she would talk to the tech, and before I could ask to talk to the tech myself I was put back on hold (where I had already been for 20 minutes). She came back and had no answer other than to say that it might be an issue. When I asked her for a clarification I found that she couldn't even put her response into words that made any sense and couldn't even respond or restate the original problem. Realizing that she knew nothing of guns I had to wonder what she could possibly have told the tech if the word "rifling" was unknown to her, not to mention "lands and grooves". This woman had to be a day worker from a temporary agency. The only thing that she did do was correct me when I said that the gun was unfired. She proudly complained that I was incorrect that the gun had been test fired by Taurus. I told her that I was aware of that and that I meant that the gun was unfired by me and that was significant in that the gun came to me in its present condition.

So, really having no answer, and unsure what the tech had been told, with very real doubts that it was anything that he needed to hear or could understand, I asked to speak directly to a tech. I was told that I could not and that I was limited to speaking to her. She then told me to send the whole gun back and that they may or may not charge for shipping. I asked if I could just send the barrel (as I had done with Glock) and the answer was "no." The thing is that if I could have spoken to the tech and conveyed the issue accurately, I could have gotten the answer that I got from a gunsmith an hour after this wonderful phone conversation.

So, be careful what you wish for. You may find that when you do speak with Beretta they may have customer "service" reps the caliber of Taurus'.

Q

Searcher, I quite agree. I've had dealings with both S&W and Glock and can only say good things. S&W did ship me the wrong parts but their error was an understandable one and they ended up shipping me extra by a good bit. Glock has been incredible to say the least. I guy on ebay screwed me over by selling me a bulged .40 barrel for my G33 (Glock said it loked like someone had fired a 9mm round in it) and they sent me a lightly used barrel for free after examining the bulged barrel. Then, when I had my G36 re-blackened the Glock tech sat down with me (they are about 15 miles from where I live) and went over the gun with me that had been examined with any worn parts replaced, and then test fired. Companies like this go out of their way to offer us what is required to make owning their products desirable and viable. I can't tell you how many guns I've passed on because of customer service, parts and support issues. As I told the woman at Taurus, I own five Taurus handguns and there will not be a sixth. I will continue to do busines with companies like Walther/SW, Glock, Steyr (just to name a few) and others who stand behind their products and offer the customer support to make it so.

Q

Deputy said:

Well guys...I am making a list of gun companies I will NOT buy from. And Beretta and Taurus are at the top the list. Customer service like you guys experienced is inexcuseable.

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Dep, I have to admit that I knew of Taurus' reputation before I bought the gun, but I've had such good luck in the past with their firearms that I rolled the dice again.

The good news is I just looked in the barrel again and with some different light have determined that the entire groove from side to side for about 4 or 5 mm is slightly lower by about the thickness of a thin piece of paper or less. The transition to the regular groove level is smooth, or appears to be so. It looks like when they started the mandrel it went deeper for that short length and then straightened out to a normal depth. I suppose I'd be more concerned if this area wasn't right at the start of the rifling and was somewhere further down the barrel. I'll send Taurus a letter covering my behind formally putting them on notice as to the problem reiterating that it won't affect the function of the gun (they did say that, but accuracy is a question mark) reserving my rights under the warranty. I'll then shoot the gun and see if accuracy is an issue. I know what the gun should do based on my PT111. Then if there's a problem there can be a return.

It's a darn shame that they wouldn't just let me talk to a tech so that I could get the information necessary to make an informed decision as to how to proceed. I was told it was against company policy. I had to later consult a gun smith who feels that there is a tiny chance that accuracy could be affected and said that I will know immediately upon shooting it. If a tech would have told me that or told me to return the gun I would have had no problem, but I had to play telephone with someone in between with a very slight grasp of the situation. A darn shame.

Q

Searcher, hopefully your smith can make it right. No cheers for Beretta.

Today I stopped by the shop to look at the Kel-Tec PF9. My research has shown that the early teething problems were solved by serials numbers starting with R0 and higher. The shop had several PF9s and one used one that was like new for $60 cheaper than their price that was $33 less than retail to begin with. As it turns out the guy who had sold it to the shop was right there buying some ammo. He loved the gun but needed a slightly smaller pocket pistol for work, a P3AT (.380). He said that he had 150 rounds through it with zero malfunctions. He also recommended sub-sonic ammo for a very pleasant shooting experience. It was great to have the previous owner right there to talk to. I put the gun on layaway and will report back after I have it to shoot, which should be in the next ten days.

Q