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I'm pretty sure I have not read of a cartridge being ignited due to a short stroke. The fact is that if the striker is not caught by the sear, it will follow the slide forward and the nose of the striker will rest on the primer. Early on there were a couple of Members here who removed the projectile and powder from a few brands of ammo and repeatedly, purposefully dropped the slide/striker onto the live primer. In each case a small indentation was made in the primer although none were ignited. A very brief and narrow test done here only... It should be noted that in many other striker fired pistols the firing pin block is located near the rear of the chamber....on the CCP, it is almost all the way to the rear of the striker's travel and near the sear, and, is what allows this situation to occur. Any semi auto can short stroke. I don't know of any others that allow the striker to contact the primer should this occur.

It is a bit unnerving to many that this can occur, in fact it is possible to chamber a round from the mag while purposefully short stroking....in that case there nothing to stop the striker from moving all the way forward. I discussed this with the Chief engineer in Germany and this had been thoroughly tested prior to the release of the pistol. One of the answers I'm not in agreement with. The other I think is correct. Forward movement of the slide during a short stroke does not allow the light weight striker to generate enough speed to ignite the primer.....perhaps not....but this is an issue some of us are not happy about. It is a poor design no matter what spin you put on it in my opinion and I don't know why Walther designed it this way. If you look at other Walther striker fired pistols you will see the firing pin block sits forward, near the chamber and is in position to catch the striker as soon as it moves a quarter of an inch or so rearward of the chamber/cartridge....

Obviously if you pull the striker rearward and were to release it...in some manner, say by pulling the trigger, the speed and mass of the striker will ignite a cartridge. I think if it were not for the forward movement of the slide slowing the non captured striker down....it would ignite a round.

The other test that I've seen a video of is a drop test. UTube, so I can't attest to it being 100% accurate....in other words it was not done at a factory test facility. But, the testers allow the non captured striker to rest on a live primer. They then do a drop test, muzzle up, and the primer fires. The theory here is that the impact drives the primer into the nose of the protruding firing pin. My theory is that the impact drives the striker rearward, compressing the striker spring and as it rebounds....there is no slide to slow it down and it hits the primer hard enough to ignite it. So, if the test is accurate for whatever reason...the location of the drop safety is too far rearward to be effective on a non captured striker making the pistol unsafe if dropped.

All of this is nothing new and has been a concern discussed from day one. But I don't remember ever reading of a short stroke igniting a round. It is still a less than desirable situation as far as I'm concerned. I hope that explains the concern many have discussed. 1917
I thought all of those issues were corrected with the recall for M1 and corrected with the M2 design.
 

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I thought all of those issues were corrected with the recall for M1 and corrected with the M2 design.
Please explain to us why you think that. If the position of the firing pin block hasn't been changed then I don't see a method for correcting a short stroke that will chamber a round while the striker is neither caught by the sear or firing pin block. One of the original issues with the pistol was that the firing pin block would drop out of position and lock the slide back. A number of threads on this with photos. Umarex revised the firing pin block. Second issue of complaint....difficulty in dismounting the slide. M2 corrected that with a revised procedure and parts.....but while I don't really follow the pistol anymore...I've never read of any change to the position of the firing pin block. No change there and the pistol should still allow short stroking to chamber a round and with the striker not caught. In that case the nose of the striker still rests on the primer of a live round. On other Walther pistols...P99, PPQ, etc. the firing pin block is almost immediately behind the chamber. If for any reason the cocked striker gets loose...the block stops it. It is not possible for the striker in these pistols to behave in the manner one can in a CCP. I'll leave it with you guys. Seems it would be easy enough to test if a round can still be chambered and with the striker not caught. 1917
 

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FWIW, below is the thread from WobblyWalt who apparently was the first to notice this issue. From the FAQ section that no one ever seems to remember to read including me. 1917

 

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FWIW, below is the thread from WobblyWalt who apparently was the first to notice this issue. From the FAQ section that no one ever seems to remember to read including me. 1917

Is that still valid as the date of that post is 2015 and release date for M2 is 2020
 

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Hey Twobits, I don't keep up with the pistol much anymore but a quick look at the new .380 model seems to show the exact same location of the firing pin block. I'm not sure that everyone understands what the issue is.....if there is an issue. The way the striker/firing pin fit is certainly differently than other Walthers...PPQ, P99, etc.

I have a P99 AS for example. The one with the decocking button. Obviously when you chamber a round either manually or when firing....the striker is cocked and ready to go. By that I mean the striker is caught by the sear. Between the sear and the chamber is a firing pin block and it is located just to the rear of the chamber. I don't believe it is possible to chamber a round in any manner and not have the striker cocked. On the AS model you can press the decocking button allowing the striker to fly forward where it is caught by the firing pin block just a short distance before it reaches the primer. This is the way most striker fired pistols work. The important item here is that the striker immediately moves rearward of the firing pin block....1/4" or so of slide retraction. So, the firing pin block is positioned to catch that firing pin regardless of how it might get loose or knocked rearward...except for when the trigger is pulled of course. The SA pistol de-cocker simply drops the sear where it it caught in a DA position. Once you fire, the pistol goes to SA unless you de-cock it. I keep mine de-cocked. Grab it and pull the trigger....it fires. After that reset is very short and the pistol is in SA mode. Press the de-cocker to go back to a full trigger pull DA mode. Safer than Glock and Walther pistols with nothing but a dingus on the trigger in my opinion. I won't carry a Glock.

So, here is the problem with the CCP, Concealed Carry Pistol....which generally means a pistol should qualify for military and police use. In my opinion the CCP doesn't meet this criteria. Sure, it's a pretty pistol, fits the hand nicely. The problem here is two fold....a round can be chambered and the striker not be caught by the sear should the slide short stroke a bit for some reason. Shooter error on manually chambering a round or perhaps limp wristing...something that causes the slide to move far enough rearward to shove a round into battery but not far enough rearward for the sear to catch the striker and not far enough rearward for the firing pin block to catch the striker. When this happens the striker follows the slide forward and the nose comes to rest on a live primer. I discussed this with the Chief Engineer in Arnsberg and their tests indicated that the mass of the striker is too light to ignite the primer in this situation although test do show a small indentation to the primer. Members here have tested it. The reason for this is that the firing pin block was located almost adjacent to the sear and not immediately rearward of the chamber.

Has Umarex changed the location? I don't know but looking at a couple of new .380 pistols here show the firing pin block in the same location......way too far back from the chamber. I think it bad enough that a round can be chambered and the striker not be caught by sear or firing pin block. And, as far as I know there have never been any discharges from the striker following the slide forward with the nose coming to a stop on the primer.

On the other hand there is a video addressing this issue where some guys installed a primer only round, striker forward and resting against it. They then dropped the piston the rear end. In this situation apparently the striker only compressed the mainspring and rebounded with enough speed/energy to fire the primer. I can only assume the reason this occurred is that the slide was closed and was not slowing down movement of the striker. The striker compressed the main spring and flew forward into the primer just as it would if fully cocked and you pulled the trigger clearing the sear and firing pin block to allow the striker to fly forward full speed. If I had one of these I'd test it. If the firing pin block is still way back there by the sear....the issue would seam to still exist. Wobbly is still correct in his assessment. Has anyone got one of these pistols....9mm or .380? Should be an easy thing to check. 1917

 

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I lifted this photo that someone here posted of their pistol. The slide is on the bottom. The firing pin block is at the green arrow, the sear at the white arrow. As you can see the slide has to almost be fully pulled rearward for the block to engage. The orange arrow is the hook on the striker, looking closely you can see that the striker is fully forward with the firing pin nose sticking through the breech face and against a primer. If the firing pin block were moved to the yellow arrow along with associated fire control components.....this issue would not exist. As the pistol is designed a round can be chambered without the sear or firing pin block being engaged. That is the issue. Has it been corrected? I haven't seen a pistol with a revised design here. Someone with recently purchased pistols should be able to answer this. I've held a number of CCPs, never fired one and grabbed the photo above from one posted here at some point in the past. That is the original firing pin block so this is where the original and revised blocks were located. The part above the sear lifts the block to disengage it so it is pretty clear that in order to move the block forward....an entirely new design would be needed. 1917
 

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But isn't the 9mm round longer so the slide would have to cycle back further to get far enough back so round would chamber That is what I meant when I said the 9mm might not have that issue. I haven't seen any pictures showing that I am wrong.
 

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If we are on the same track still....yes a 9mm round is slightly longer and the original issue here was reported by several 9mm pistol owners long before the .380 version was offered. There are threads on this that go back several years, dealing with the 9mm model. I don't have one of these pistols but I understand what owners are reporting. You can install a loaded mag, pull the slide back far enough that the feed rail will get behind a round in the mag, press a round out of the mag and chamber it while not pressing the striker far enough to be caught by the firing pin block or sear and with no indication to the shooter that this has occurred. So you will have the striker firing pin resting against a live primer and a dead trigger. As far as I can tell there isn't much more to this issue. The firing pin block is too far rearward. A number of Members have these pistols.....someone could easily test this by pulling the slide rearward just enough for the feed rail to get behind a 9mm or .380 round to test if this condition still occurs.

It appears to me from examining the operation of the parts that a pretty significant change to the pistol would be required to correct this. This is not the kind of stuff you want in a Concealed Carry Pistol.....self defense CCP anymore than you want slides cracking and flying off of a .22 pistol. Umarex is not Walther of old. 1917
 

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Below is a P99 slide to illustrate how this situation could not occur with the military and police quality pistols. Although chambered for 9mm this should illustrate what the problem with the CCP is.

Door Fixture Rectangle Wood Automotive exterior


The chrome part on the left is the firing pin block. Note how close its placement is to the chamber entrance. The feed rail is the center strip. Pictured is a 9mm round as it would be presented by the magazine. The nose of the feed rail needs to move rearward enough to get behind the rim of the cartridge in order to strip it from a mag and chamber it. Note how far rearward of the firing pin block/drop safety this would have to occur. Good thing too since this pistol has a button to decock it and place it in SA mode.
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And here is a shorter .380 round placed as a mag would present it. This pistol is chambered for 9mm but this should illustrate an answer to the question about a shorter round. Note how far rearward the feed rail needs to move to get behind a .380 round.....again, way rearward of the firing pin block. All some are saying is that the firing pin block on the CCP is so far rearward that it is possible for the feed rail to chamber a round before the striker is pressed rearward enough to place the striker behind the firing pin block or sear. You might get a short stroke on a P99 that doesn't fully cock the striker for some reason.....but if the slide moves as little as 1/4".....the firing pin block is operational and will catch the striker....certainly not let it forward with the firing pin resting on a live round. That is all this issue is about. 1917
 

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Then you owners need to contact a lawyer willing to take this as a class action lawsuit. Make them fix it or buy back these faulty guns. I don't see why the problem can't be fixed with a slight design change. I am not trying to be a dick about this but if something is wrong and you don't do all you can to fix it you are part of the problem.
 

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Below is a P99 slide to illustrate how this situation could not occur with the military and police quality pistols. Although chambered for 9mm this should illustrate what the problem with the CCP is.

View attachment 101798

The chrome part on the left is the firing pin block. Note how close its placement is to the chamber entrance. The feed rail is the center strip. Pictured is a 9mm round as it would be presented by the magazine. The nose of the feed rail needs to move rearward enough to get behind the rim of the cartridge in order to strip it from a mag and chamber it. Note how far rearward of the firing pin block/drop safety this would have to occur. Good thing too since this pistol has a button to decock it and place it in SA mode. View attachment 101799

And here is a shorter .380 round placed as a mag would present it. This pistol is chambered for 9mm but this should illustrate an answer to the question about a shorter round. Note how far rearward the feed rail needs to move to get behind a .380 round.....again, way rearward of the firing pin block. All some are saying is that the firing pin block on the CCP is so far rearward that it is possible for the feed rail to chamber a round before the striker is pressed rearward enough to place the striker behind the firing pin block or sear. You might get a short stroke on a P99 that doesn't fully cock the striker for some reason.....but if the slide moves as little as 1/4".....the firing pin block is operational and will catch the striker....certainly not let it forward with the firing pin resting on a live round. That is all this issue is about. 1917
I wasn't asking about a shorter round. I am asking that being that the 9mm would have to move much further back before a round could be chambered do the 9mm version still have that issue.
 

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I wasn't asking about a shorter round. I am asking that being that the 9mm would have to move much further back before a round could be chambered do the 9mm version still have that issue.
Looks to me that this can be fixed simply by moving the tab on the firing pin block that catches on the sear a little bit towards front of gun and shorting the red cocking indicator. From the time the slide is able to pickup the round from the mag is only about .06 from the full stroke of the slide. So some place between that is when that tab catches on sear and gun is cocked.
 

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Then you owners need to contact a lawyer willing to take this as a class action lawsuit.
You sound like Wobbly Walt six years ago. :) As of this date I've never read here or anywhere else that the pistol has fired as a result of this issue*. But, having a dead trigger and with no indication that you have such is an issue to me. I'm at a bit of a disadvantage in my assessments since I've never purchased one of these pistols or I would definitely know the answer to these questions first hand. Back to the *, there is a video by two guys where they short stroke the slide so that a 9mm round (without powder) is chambered, striker not caught and nose resting against the primer. They then drop the pistol from about 3' onto the rear and it fires. Why did this happen when it apparently won't happen when the slide is chambering a round and the striker isn't caught and follows the slide forward? The only thing I can come up with is that movement of the slide slows the sliker down. In other words the striker can't fly forward any faster than the slide is moving. But when dropped, the striker compresses the mainspring to some point then flys back forward with nothing to slow it down and now has enough energy to ignite the primer. I'm surprised this has not been tested by others. If I had one I'd have thoroughly test it with several brands of ammo. Anyway, Wobbly Walt brought all of this up in May of 2015 and his post is in the FAQ section and linked above.

I'll point out again that the pistol originally came in 9mm only so this was a 9mm issue. There was no .380 until recently. Has Walther modified the pistol to correct this issue? I have no idea....I don't have one but have never read a thread addressing revisions that correct it. I don't think it is an easy fix. Member Chandler and others who own the pistol have discussed this at length and years ago. I hope this has been addressed but have never read that it has.

And I still want a $50 one so I can thoroughly test all of this. Someone really hate this pistol and wants to get rid of it cheap.....PM me. OK, I'm out of this....I've beaten it to death. It's a good looking pistol, fits the hand nicely and many owners report no issues...it just wouldn't do for me as a carry with any issues. 1917
 

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You sound like Wobbly Walt six years ago. :) As of this date I've never read here or anywhere else that the pistol has fired as a result of this issue*. But, having a dead trigger and with no indication that you have such is an issue to me. I'm at a bit of a disadvantage in my assessments since I've never purchased one of these pistols or I would definitely know the answer to these questions first hand. Back to the *, there is a video by two guys where they short stroke the slide so that a 9mm round (without powder) is chambered, striker not caught and nose resting against the primer. They then drop the pistol from about 3' onto the rear and it fires. Why did this happen when it apparently won't happen when the slide is chambering a round and the striker isn't caught and follows the slide forward? The only thing I can come up with is that movement of the slide slows the sliker down. In other words the striker can't fly forward any faster than the slide is moving. But when dropped, the striker compresses the mainspring to some point then flys back forward with nothing to slow it down and now has enough energy to ignite the primer. I'm surprised this has not been tested by others. If I had one I'd have thoroughly test it with several brands of ammo. Anyway, Wobbly Walt brought all of this up in May of 2015 and his post is in the FAQ section and linked above.

I'll point out again that the pistol originally came in 9mm only so this was a 9mm issue. There was no .380 until recently. Has Walther modified the pistol to correct this issue? I have no idea....I don't have one but have never read a thread addressing revisions that correct it. I don't think it is an easy fix. Member Chandler and others who own the pistol have discussed this at length and years ago. I hope this has been addressed but have never read that it has.

And I still want a $50 one so I can thoroughly test all of this. Someone really hate this pistol and wants to get rid of it cheap.....PM me. OK, I'm out of this....I've beaten it to death. It's a good looking pistol, fits the hand nicely and many owners report no issues...it just wouldn't do for me as a carry with any issues. 1917
There is an indicator that would tell the shooter that the gun isn't cocked. It is the cocking indicator right below the rear sight. No red not cocked. And like I said before force Walther to do a redesign. It can be fixed simply by moving the sear engagement hook on the firing pin block forward not more than 1/16th of an inch should do it.
 

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In discussing the striker not being caught by the sear or drop safety, 3JFamily asks the following:

Is this at all related to the CCP drop safe recall?
No, there are two separate issues. The recall had nothing to do with the striker not being caught and following a live round into the chamber.
Automotive lighting Bumper Automotive exterior Cable Auto part


Above is a photo addressing the recall issue. Mapornik posted this of the recall issue. His pistol. The original firing pin block/drop safety began to fall out of the slide as shown above and would then get caught behind the lower frame assembly. This of course stopped the pistol from being fired. Look closely and you can see how far down the safety has dropped. Page 7 of the "Problems" thread. This is what the recall was about.... a revised part was installed in the slide. I never did really understand what the problem was that allowed this but it caused a critical stoppage of course. The part was revised and apparently whatever was changed eliminated this issue. This had nothing to do with the short stroking issue..

The short stroking, striker following the slide forward and resting the firing pin nose on the primer has never been addressed as far as I know. No recall, no revision of parts layout.



Way, way back there I did the above concept for a possible solution to the striker not being caught. It involved moving the hook face rearward a bit so it would be sure to be caught more easily. This of course would allow the striker to sit a bit forward which meant that the face needed to be notched so that the firing pin block would also benefit from the striker not having to be pressed as far rearward as is presently required. I could not determine a simpler solution. The disconnect and sear are contained in the trigger assembly and relocating them will require an entirely different design to the system. If OldFart or I had one of these pistols I'm confident we would have solved this years ago. 1917
 

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In discussing the striker not being caught by the sear or drop safety, 3JFamily asks the following:



No, there are two separate issues. The recall had nothing to do with the striker not being caught and following a live round into the chamber.
View attachment 101813

Above is a photo addressing the recall issue. Mapornik posted this of the recall issue. His pistol. The original firing pin block/drop safety began to fall out of the slide as shown above and would then get caught behind the lower frame assembly. This of course stopped the pistol from being fired. Look closely and you can see how far down the safety has dropped. Page 7 of the "Problems" thread. This is what the recall was about.... a revised part was installed in the slide. I never did really understand what the problem was that allowed this but it caused a critical stoppage of course. The part was revised and apparently whatever was changed eliminated this issue. This had nothing to do with the short stroking issue..

The short stroking, striker following the slide forward and resting the firing pin nose on the primer has never been addressed as far as I know. No recall, no revision of parts layout.



Way, way back there I did the above concept for a possible solution to the striker not being caught. It involved moving the hook face rearward a bit so it would be sure to be caught more easily. This of course would allow the striker to sit a bit forward which meant that the face needed to be notched so that the firing pin block would also benefit from the sear striker not having to be pressed all the way rearward. I could not determine a simpler solution. The disconnect and sear are contained in the trigger assembly and relocating them will require an entirely different design to the system. 1917
I agree. I was wrong it should be moved back a bit not forward. But wouldn't that require a bit stiffer spring for the firing pin. I was wondering if you could provide a sketch with measurements and post on here.
 

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Twobits, here is the thing about modifications. I like your thinking and this is the way you have to approach it. But, remember....firearms are pretty precision manufactured tools so you often don't have a lot of room for modifications and always have to remember that changing something might have an adverse effect on something else. So, you have to look at the whole chain of parts function. Oh, and I don't have one of these pistols, never have....all my figuring just comes from looking at the layout and how the pistol works. So I can't send measurement......now if one were to show up at my local FFL.....that would be a different story.

I once though for example.....hmmmm, let's file the rear of the striker off a bit so the whole thing can move rearward a bit. Then no need to modify the hook or recess the striker face.....but wait.....what stops the rearward movement of the part and how close does the mainspring come to going solid with the stock set up. I know it fits inside the cup of the striker and if I modify something to let the cup move further rearward....will the spring be compressed solid? With that destroy the striker body? The spring? Will that blow off the counter plate which originally held the whole rear end together? I would have to have a pistol in hand, study and measure prezackly how far back the feed rail moves to get behind a cartridge and then compare all of that to measurements of when prezackly does the hook get behind the sear, the face of the striker get behind the firing pin block, etc. OK, all of that is doable before modifying any parts....but not if you don't have factory drawings which Umarex isn't going to be handing out or a pistol in hand.

Also, it is likely that the sear face might be moved forward just a bit . That would reduce trigger pull since there would be move leverage by the internal cam....but you can't know these things without gun in hand and a lot of thought. Shorter sear????....lets the striker sit forward....does all that still work with the alignment of the disconnect for the firing pin block?

Hammer guns aren't really all that different. When the slide presses the hammer rearward the primary hook doesn't stop just barely, barely past the sear. It is pressed perhaps 0.020" more than necessary to account for dirt, wear and to give the sear time to pop up in front of the rebounding hammer. If the primary hook slips off the sear the secondary hook is there to catch the falling hammer unless the trigger is pulled. Same for the firing pin block/sear in this pistol. The striker needs to be pressed rearward of the sear a bit and the face of the firing pin block. How much rearward....I have no idea...again, I'd have to have one of these pistols in hand and take careful measurements.

Here is how I kinda sum this pistol up. Softcoil????whatever that is and there is mention of a weaker recoil spring making racking the slide easier for older people, those with hand issues, arthritis, women??? etc. OK, all well and fine but....here Umarex is targeting these types of owners yet they have produced a firearm that unless fully retracted can chamber a round and not be cocked. So the above group might not be able to retract the slide all the way easily and the same goes for holding the pistol firmly. What happens with limp wristing....the moving firearm absorbs some of the recoil energy which can result in a short stroke. And it is called a Concealed Carry Pistol....not a practice pistol. Now hand that pistol to 30 year old Mr. 6' 10" who can almost rip the slide off, hold the pistol like a steel vise, knows to use good ammo and you probably have a 100% pistol. So for one group....problems....for those that don't need softcoil you probably don't get many issues regarding this which is probably what makes some people here wonder what all the noise is about.....theirs functions fine. Walther could do better and should. I don't know if there is room to modify the striker hook or face to allow more time/space for the part to be caught. Could a slight change there eliminate a round being chambered with the parts not being caught? That is the way it should work. I haven't read anything much at all on the .380. 1917
 

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So I can't send measurement......now if one were to show up at my local FFL.....that would be a different story.
I'm thinkin' when you walk into your local FFL, the first thing you hear is all the cases being closed and locked. They know that if you pick up a firearm, there's a very high chance that you'll have it completely disassembled in 10 seconds and parts/pieces laying all over the counter. 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂

Sorry, couldn't resist.

I agree.....one change usually will affect something else. Like me thinking 'I could just take off a little bit right here'. AND, that'd move the wall back a little bit, reduce the creep, as well as the reset. One little change/mod had an effect on three separate actions. Did I do it? Nope, I left well enough alone. 😁

I do like your trigger stop on your P22. I used your idea and put a dab of JBW on the bottom of the trigger shoe. Stops the trigger movement about 3 whiskers after the striker is released.
 
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