Walther Forums banner

1 - 20 of 26 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
100 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Probably not Interarms is not listed. Ranger manufacturing doesn't even list 32's.
Page 43 lists:


Emco, Inc.
201 Industrial Parkway
Gadsden, AL 35903


That's Ranger/Interarms.


It lists production in .22, .25, .32, and .380 calibers and includes 5,013 pistols in .32 produced in 1998, the year Ranger produced its short run of .32 caliber PPK pistols.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,710 Posts
I read last Saturday that Ranger manufacturing started the Walther production in May of 1988, the PDF says 1989. I am trying to remember where I found that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,109 Posts
I think it is correct because 32 PPK's were made after 1988. ttk I think is right because I have heard that about 5000 32's were made & all after 1988. Ranger was the MFG. & interarms was the importer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,710 Posts
The place that I can't find again, broke them down by year, models, caliber, SS and blued, however, no S/N. There were also no SS or nickel PP's only blued.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
157 Posts
Perhaps my reading comprehension isn't all it should be and it has been a while since I participated here...but I'm confused with some of what's posted here:

1. The producer of this "document" is the Violence Policy Center, an antigun propaganda organ that knows nothing of guns or honesty. And though I despise them and all they stand for…as much as it galls me, it appears this particular “document” is nothing more than a compilation of open source BATF production reports. If they wasted their money to copy such information, it’s available to us and we can use it to our benefit…why not use the BATF information within? With that said…

2. The suggested chronology posted here by some…not the link itself, regarding Ranger production, is definitely off.

The way I understand the chronology follows:

Walther licensed Interarms in the summer of '77 to manufacture and then sell the Walther PP series and TPH pistols in the USA.

By the winter of '78, Interarms contracted with Etowah Manufacturing Co. Inc. (Emco, Inc.) of Gadsden, (Etowah County) AL to produce up to a quarter million Walther pistols over an initial 5 year contract period. Emco Inc. BTW was one of a group of family owned manufacturing companies in Gadsden, AL. The group…under the banner of Mid-South Industries (MSI) acting as a holding company, also included Ranger Manufacturing Co. Inc., Black Creek Manufacturing Inc....and others. Though Emco Inc. initiated the contract, Ranger did the actual work-up, tooling, pre-production and series production. Interarms got a sweetheart deal, as Ranger bore all the costs, both pre-and post-production. Interarms and the group holding company MSI bounced the contract around the group...on paper anyway, while Ranger continued to manufacture the pistols. Full series production was underway immediately in 1980...rumor has it, and DHM suggests, a number of pistols actually made it to Interarms in '79. FWIW, my earliest USA made Walther is a 1980 Blue PPK/s in…or course, .380.

In a nutshell: Interarms was an Importer of French/German produced Walther pistols for decades…beginning in 1956 as InterArmCo, as well as…later and concurrently, a Walther Licensee who “subcontracted” USA production of Walther pistols to the Mid-South Industries (MSI) group consisting of Etowah Manufacturing Co. Inc. (Emco, Inc.), Ranger Manufacturing Co. Inc., Black Creek Manufacturing Inc....and others.

That's the way I understand it anyway...

3. This might seem a bit backwards and perhaps a bit harder to follow, but the thread started with the link to page 43, so that’s where I’ll start. Page 43 indicates a 10 year BATF reporting period of '89 through '98 for the Emco Inc. of Gadsden, AL mentioned above in 2, the only time Emco Inc. is mentioned in this ’00 dated “document”. The vast majority of pistols are .380 as would be expected of USA Walther PP series pistols. The 5K+ .32 production pistols listed in '98 matches the approximate number of Walther PP series .32 pistols known to have been produced in the USA for Interarms during ’98…as suggested by DHM, gene1, ttkt57 and others. And, since we know that Walther PP series pistols in .22 were only manufactured by Manurhin under the usual French/German arrangement with Ulm…also suggested by DHM and others, the .22 production here would likely be TPH pistols which we know Interarms also commissioned Ranger to produce. Almost 24K .22 TPH pistols…even over 10 years, seems high to my relatively TPH unfamiliar eye…and though we know that .25 TPH production was only a fraction of the .22 TPH production, only just over 600 .25 TPH pistols…admittedly only starting in ’92, again as suggested by DHM and others, seems low. Though again, I've never really followed the USA TPH and claim no expertise there.

4. Looking further down the "document" to page 123 we find an earlier BATF reporting period of '80 through '88 for the same Ranger Manufacturing Co. Inc. of Gadsden, AL mentioned in 2 above, that dovetails with the Emco Inc. of Gadsden, AL '89 through '98 report in 3 above....with no overlap. This is the only time Ranger appears in the BATF reports as well, and taken with the background manufacturer info listed above in 2….even the FBI would consider it a clue. Once more…as would be expected, the vast majority of this production was .380. The list includes .22 and .380 production…and we know the initial '78 contract allowed for .22, .32 and .380 pistols only...and in fact ONLY .380 pistols were produced during that first 5 year contract period. The fact that the report indicates .22 production totaling 8.5K did not begin until ’86…well within a subsequent contract, lends credence to the report. The .22 production beginning in '86 would dovetail perfectly with the known start date of USA .22 TPH production, as suggested by DHM and others as well. Already mentioned, that original '78 contract permitted production of .22, .32 and .380 Walther pistols…but one would think in an effort to produce sufficient numbers of bread and butter .380 pistols for the American market, Ranger wouldn't start production of other calibers until later in the production cycle. Again...supposition only, but it might just add up.

5. I don’t though have a clue either as to the model and/or construction breakdown regarding numbers of each produced. I only have a mixture of half a dozen PPK and PPK/s, blue and stainless pistols from 1980 to 1990…and all are .380…

At first glance posting a link to anything by the VPC on a gun forum would appear to be bad form, BUT using that BATF supplied information…combined with known facts from elsewhere and a better snapshot of USA Walther production emerges. The OP is…IMHO, to be commended…
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,914 Posts
I will toss in two cents worth:

All that the Violence Policy Center did --13 years ago-- was to collate the available annual manufacturers' reports to BATF from 1975 (at the earliest) to 1998. At that time (2000) it represented a 2-year-old snapshot of the firearms industry, which VPC wanted to exploit for its own political propaganda. It is now ancient history, and its usefulness, even back in 2000, is difficult to fathom. It is of no significance to the composition of the industry or its production today, 15 years later.

As far as it goes, the data is reasonably reliable, having been originally assembled by BATF for federal excise tax accounting. But there are some gaping and unexplained omissions, such as the absence of pre-1986 figures for Ruger, Remington, Colt's and U.S. Repeating Arms, among others. In any event the figures relate to domestic production; they do not include imports.

Many of the manufacturers are listed by unfamiliar corporate names, or by more than one name, according to how the annual manufacturing license was applied for. Emco and Ranger are a good example. Their totals must be added together to get a picture of production for Interarms. 1998 coincidentally was the last year of deliveries to Interarms.

The .380 pistols are all either PPK/s or PPK, blue or stainless, totaling 277,428. The .32s add another 5,031.

The .22s listed are all TPH, stainless or blue, totaling 32,340*. TPH .25s add 620 units.

It is not known whether these figures include rejects returned by Interarms that were subsequently scrapped by the manufacturer.

The figures show pretty clearly that there was no serial production of PPK/s pistols before 1980, and not much in that year. Initial production was blue, and did not get rolling until 1981; stainless did not start until about 1983. TPHs were introduced, first in stainless, about 1987.

All of this illustrates the pitfalls of trying to extrapolate production totals or year of manufacture from observed serial numbers; basically it doesn't work.

I rather wish VPC would update this study to 2012. The results would be very interesting, and I can't see how it would be injurious to us. The BATF data is in the public domain, but the compilation itself is a lot of work. Why not let our enemies waste their money and energy doing it?

M
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,109 Posts
Great posts by both Mike & Submoa. I was only thinking of 32 PPK & PPK/S. I knew production on 380's did go on after 1988. At least it was a list of Ranger production up to 1988.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
157 Posts
Kool Mike thanks as well :D.

So there were really that many TPH .22s...and actually that few TPH .25s huh?

Oh wait...don't forget the 8740 TPH .22s from the '86-'88 Ranger chart. They should be added to your 23870 total right? That'd make the TPH .22 numbers even higher @ 32610 and the ratio of .22s v. .25s even greater.

Wow, where'd all those things go?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,914 Posts
...

Oh wait...don't forget the 8740 TPH .22s from the '86-'88 Ranger chart. They should be added to your 23870 total right? That'd make the TPH .22 numbers even higher @ 32610 and the ratio of .22s v. .25s even greater.

...
My mistake. The correct total of .22 TPH would be 32,340. The overwhelming majority of those were stainless.

M
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
26,070 Posts
Nice job, guys. The information here is too good to let slip off into gradually disappearing thread mode, only to be resurrected three years from by some newcomer hoping to get a bead on what grandpa left him -- at which point he is promptly chided for necromancy and is never heard from again.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
157 Posts
My mistake. The correct total of .22 TPH would be 32,340. The overwhelming majority of those were stainless.

M
Dyslexia...or at least fumble fingers ;), strikes again :eek:, re: 8470 v. 8740. I'd jotted down the '86-'88 total 8470 correctly on a piece of scratch paper, then rounded it to "8.5K" in my OP...as I'd rounded all OP totals. BUT :eek:, later transposed the numbers when adding/typing the subsequent response to Mike :(. DUH...sorry :eek:.

While we're at it...and muddying this up ;)...couldn't "Edit" once it was a "Sticky" I guess: "5." of my OP should read "blue and stainless USA made pistols from 1980 to 1990", I do have "a few" other PP series pistols from across the pond ;):D.

AND, of course: Thanks Searcher :D
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
26,070 Posts
Something's up in the software regarding editing posts right now; it's been reported, so hang on ... sorry about that.

Good information here, guys. Nicely done. All current and future Ranger/Interams owners will appreciate it.
 
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
Top