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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
There are also countless individuals who are actually qualified instructors (a YouTube account isn't a qualification) who constantly point out that this is false, and that rather any decent amount of solid training and practice will develop the capability to use the sights when necessary. "You won't see your sights in a gunfight" is a false firearms myth/urban legend similar to "you don't have to aim a shotgun" and ".45 is a one-hit stopper."

Normalizing sub-par performance by calling it unavoidable, when it's perfectly avoidable through proper instruction and practice, is the wrong choice. As you point out, it's a training issue.

OK Erich, sometime next week as you're walking along the sidewalk, a guy is going to come up to you unexpectedly, and push you hard at the shoulder. As you step back 2-3 feet he's going to pull out a gun, point it at your face and (demand your wallet) tells you he's going to kill you.


Now, you need to pull your weapon, get a 2 handed grip, raise it into an isosceles stance (as you've been trained) and find your front sight, line it up with the rear and take aim at your target.


When he sees your gun come off your hip in your strong hand, do you think he's going to wait for you to finish?


I don't know, I'd probably pull and attempt to shot from the hip and continue shooting while I brought my firearm up to get a better sight picture. Hopefully, the first couple from the hip hit, but at the very least freak him out enough to turn and run.



But, you can ask him to wait if you prefer.


Give me a second now while I duck and cover for the impending discussion :eek:
 

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Nothing in my wallet that I would be willing to kill or die for.

That said, I carry a revolver in my right side jacket pocket and I select clothing without any impediments to using from the pocket. I'll probably be on fire after a shot or two but i'll survive that. If it does come out of the pocket, it can be accurately sighted from any position via the laser.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Nothing in my wallet that I would be willing to kill or die for.

Yeah, after I wrote that I figured that would come up. The site doesn't allow me to leave text but strike it out, so let's change it to -


point a gun at your face and tell you he's going to kill you.

If that actually changes my point, I hope it's to make it clearer.
 

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Zip
Most of us can have two rounds in center mass (with target acquisition) because we train. That is the whole point.

And why did you let a stranger get inside your red zone in the first place...shame on you!
 
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Discussion Starter #5
with target acquisition

For my scenario it depends on your definition of 'target acquisition'.
If you mean proper sight picture using irons (as in Erich's description), that gun in your face isn't going to wait for you to raise yours to get a sight picture.
 

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And why did you let a stranger get inside your red zone in the first place...shame on you!

This.

If the bad guy's gun is out and aimed at your brainbucket, you're quite bluntly already ****ed.

I can say what I'd do, but it probably isn't the right thing, nor does it involve a gun and dependent on the skill and willingness of the BG to actually make good on his threat, I'm still going to take fire, but at least I will have made an attempt to briefly incapacitate the assailant in the hope of then either disarming him or stopping him in whatever means necessary..


What I'd do...probably not for everyone. But I'd fire a short hard jab right in his throat while moving to the inside of his gun arm and being ready to follow up with more fists and feet while being ready to draw if a chance is made.

Of course, this is all subjective to actually being in a situation.

One could hope that no shots are fired...but I fully intend to be around to tell my kids I love them at bedtime. Damned if I'll leave anything on the table to put that on the line.

This should everyone's attitude who carries a gun. When you put that firearm in the holster, you're making a vow to yourself and your loved ones that you are quite bluntly, willing to end another persons life in order to secure your own. If you can't face that, please revisit carrying for defensive purposes.
 

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It sure is...That is how we train. Watch tactical training. That is exactly what we do.

And no one should ever be in your red zone in the first place. By the time they are that close your weapon should be presented, target acquired and rounds fired.

Zip you can hip fire all you want. I'll continue to train properly which is in a similar fashion to Eric...again if hip shooting had an advantage don't you think we'd be using it?

Folks who have attended the various Greet and Shoots will attest to the fact my speed and accuracy leave nothing to be desired. And believe me I'm not all that fast compared to the fast guys.

When it comes to fighting I believe in having the very best advantages possible and point and shoot from the hip just doesn't give it to me. Proper training, technique with target acquisition give me those advantages.
 
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Hip point shooting technique was used by Jelly Bryce. Jelly Bryce was successful and brought into the FBI in the 1930s. He developed the technique that the FBI used even into the 1960s. He was their lead instructor and instructed FBI agents.
He used double action revolver.

OldvUS Army WWII 1911 trading films have some one hand techniques and up close draw methods. That could be adapted with practice.

Back to Bryce.
His grip technique and trigger control method is not taught much today and not adapted to semi autos.

His holster was an open top similar to three person leather, not a retention holster. That is a major difference from today too.

Other revolver point shooters were Applegate and Jordan. They had their own variations.

If you care to use point shooting, take look at old FBI training films.

Today up close, may be more of a flash sight picture technique as advocated by Jeff Cooper with the 1911.

Yet even in those revolver days each person had to develop their own adapted technique.

Likely you are on your own in developing your own style. Point shooting is not emphasized. Gunsite has some videos on rocking the draw, but not a Jelly Bryce style technique.

In the semiauto world Ken Hackathon and Larry Vickers have some drills that may be of interest.


FmCrimpson trace laser grip on a j frame or some pistols will readily get good results after some practice and familiarization. Keep the laser where intended while pressing the trigger then you would not have to rely on point shooting.

But you still need good fundamentals and the right holster.

Personally I use more of a flash sight picture and use a crimson trace on a jframe for low ambient conditions. Could never see the black S&W sights even in good sunlight they are tough to see.
 

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Some people are sort of natural shooters, others have solid hand eye coordination, and if that close, you should be able to shoot without your sights.


I think point shooting is acceptable for reasonable distance and shooters ability and training.
 

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According to Tom Givens, retired LEO and firearms instructor who tracked 70 of his students' gun fights, most civilian gun fights take place the length of a car. Police fights take place much closer because too often they have to approach you. It was Col Jeff Cooper who taught us to use our sights in fights pointing out that it did not take any amount of time to do so. Now that being said many of the speedo competition shooters will telling you depending on the distance from the target they use the back of the pistols for aiming and not the sights. Ken Hackathorn, ex spec op guy and Wilson Combat instructor, has taught classes in point shooting. The use of sights depends on distance to the target. Most instructor I have had taught use of sights at seven yards when aiming a smaller targets and make you shift from large to small targets at that distance. They say they do not want to see small groups because that indicates you are taking too much time.
 

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Some people are sort of natural shooters, others have solid hand eye coordination, and if that close, you should be able to shoot without your sights.


I think point shooting is acceptable for reasonable distance and shooters ability and training.

Very true; but hostage situations can take place at short distances so you may have to use your sights. So it is distance and situational.
 

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This.

If the bad guy's gun is out and aimed at your brainbucket, you're quite bluntly already ****ed.

I can say what I'd do, but it probably isn't the right thing, nor does it involve a gun and dependent on the skill and willingness of the BG to actually make good on his threat, I'm still going to take fire, but at least I will have made an attempt to briefly incapacitate the assailant in the hope of then either disarming him or stopping him in whatever means necessary..


What I'd do...probably not for everyone. But I'd fire a short hard jab right in his throat while moving to the inside of his gun arm and being ready to follow up with more fists and feet while being ready to draw if a chance is made.

Of course, this is all subjective to actually being in a situation.

One could hope that no shots are fired...but I fully intend to be around to tell my kids I love them at bedtime. Damned if I'll leave anything on the table to put that on the line.

This should everyone's attitude who carries a gun. When you put that firearm in the holster, you're making a vow to yourself and your loved ones that you are quite bluntly, willing to end another persons life in order to secure your own. If you can't face that, please revisit carrying for defensive purposes.

You are not necessarily already f,,,,,. There is a combat principle that action beats reaction. The author of " No Second Place Winner" Bill JOrdan use to demonstrate in court how he could beat someone from the draw who already had his gun out. The problem is the guy, who already has his gun out, is reacting to the guy, who is drawing his gun. It takes time for his brain to register what is happening and send the signal to his muscles to pull the trigger. That is why, when you are taught pistol disarms in the martial arts, you can always take the pistol from the person wielding it before he can pull the trigger. I have done this many times. Old saying in Jiu Jitsu - if it close enough to touch it close enough to take. Now all that being said you must be fairly highly trained and skilled to do both.
 

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FBI says average gunfight is 3 shots in 3 seconds at 3 yards. Using sights require you to raise the gun to eye level and, at least partially extend your arm(s). A laser allows you to precisely "sight" the gun while holding it close to your body. Very handy if you are being mugged by Mr. Myagi.
 

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Dr Lewinski's reaction time tests demonstrate you are screwed:

Rethinking Reaction Time

In one startling test, for example, a female volunteer who had never before held a firearm (simulating an inexperienced offender) was able to pull a hidden gun from her waistband and shoot at an officer in an average of 16/100 of a second. The typical officer going for his weapon in a Level I holster requires 1.5 seconds to draw and fire a sighted shot once he perceives a stimulus to act. "In 1.7 seconds, an attacker using a Glock 9mm pistol can deliver six rounds on average," Lewinski says. "Considering just reaction time alone, the officer is screwed."
 

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That is why, when you are taught pistol disarms in the martial arts, you can always take the pistol from the person wielding it before he can pull the trigger. I have done this many times. Old saying in Jiu Jitsu - if it close enough to touch it close enough to take. Now all that being said you must be fairly highly trained and skilled to do both.
This is why it's imperative to not let anyone get close enough to disarm you, if possible. Being that I'm 75 and small framed, I am not in a position to get into a fight with too many people. I could only hope the prosecutor would take that into consideration. I just don't want to get beat to death, overthinking it at the time.
 

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My agency trains hip shooting from the 1.5 yard line (3 shots in 3 seconds).

We also train point shooting at the 3 yard line (3 rounds in 3 seconds).

We also train body armor drills at the seven yard line. Two rounds to the chest and one to the head (4 seconds). At the seven yard line we also transition to one hand shooting in both support and strong hand).

Our hip shooting is supposed to simulate if we are knocking on a door (identifying ourselves with credentials) and sh*t goes south.

I also practice point shooting from 7-10 yards on a regular basis.
 
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Zip
Most of us can have two rounds in center mass (with target acquisition) because we train. That is the whole point.

And why did you let a stranger get inside your red zone in the first place...shame on you!
Stranger danger

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Stranger danger

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It isn't just strangers, you need to be situationally aware.

Basically I do a threat assessment on every person getting close to my red zone (especially my wife).
 
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Even the military taught shooting without sights, in basic training. Don't
know if its still done, but it was spot on good stuff going into a combat
zone.
I painted a thin white line on top of my backup .45, and had a string from front
sight post to receiver on the rifle, because I believed I needed to have that edge.
Shooting without sights should be practiced, and I do . . .occasionally.
 
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