Walther Forums banner

1 - 18 of 18 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I have a new P22 QD (2018 model) and I find the double action trigger pull to be almost unusable. True, I have weak hands and I'm trying to build that up. I had a 2003 P22 that I sold in 2017 and I don't remember the DA pull being this hard. I don't have a trigger pull gauge that goes high enough to register. The single action pull measures about 5 pounds. My gauge only goes to 10 pounds.


So, is there a way to reduce the DA trigger pull without compromising the P22 reliability?


Edit: I can pull the DA pull all the way except for the last end of the pull. Then it hits a wall and it is hard to go farther. I can, sometimes, complete the DA pull and release the hammer but sometimes I can't. I do need to increase my hand strength. It would be nice to be able to reduce the DA pull of my P22.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
726 Posts
The quickest way to reduce the DA trigger pull it to simply pull the hammer back by thumb.:D Walther claims it has an 11 lb pull. Compared to my PPK/S in .22 (17 lb) piece of cake.

I had a devil of a time racking the slide on my PPK .380 - bought a hand strength device. Much easier now. (I’m 65).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Thanks, Wildtoad, I'm 72 and I shook the dust ff the Grip-Master I have. I'm using that for my hands. I'll just forget about the DA until my hands beef up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,423 Posts
There is no good way to reduce it. It takes 8 oz of pull to simply wind the trigger spring. Other points of pressure along the line include rotating the sear out of the way of the hammer and most importantly pressing the hammer rearward against the 8 lb hammer spring (mainspring). As you pull the trigger the first thing that happens is that the trigger bar rises, engages the hammer strut and sear. As you pull the trigger further rearward the hammer strut which is pinned to the hammer is pressed further and further rearward. In DA the sear never catches the hammer.

The strut and center portion of the trigger bar act as the sear. The hammer is released as two steel pins molded into the sides of the frame halves engage the two outer shoulders of the trigger bar and press it downward until it disconnects from the hammer strut. The hammer is now free to fall all the way as the sear is rotated out of the way. When the slide moves rearward the two small ramps on the underside knock the trigger bar ears down which disconnects it from the sear and prevents full auto fire. 1917
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I checked y P22 and the amount of clearance between the rear of the trigger and the frame is very small. This result in very little overtravel. The rear face of the trigger would have to be reduced in order to install heat shrink tubing.



This brings up another question: Would reducing the rear of the trigger by 1/16" and not using heat shrink tubing (which increases the overtravel) make it easier to get to the DA release point?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I'm not going to do anything with the P22 right now. First, I need to get my hands stronger (working on it). i have a 0 to 25 pound trigger gauge coming Thursday (Timney TS=025). I'll measure the DA trigger pull then and let you know.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,423 Posts


Shown is appx. the maximum amt of over-travel stop you can put on a P22. Any more and the hammer will not be released. Is it worth it. It is to me on this target pistol. The moment the hammer is released the trigger stops rearward movement. Do not do this to a self defense pistol. You need the extra pull for 100% reliable release even with some wear or dirt. With a plinker....do it if you like.

Mark, you need to work on hand strength. Exercise will do wonders so get with it. Keep something handy, rubber ball, grip exerciser, etc. and give those hands a work out 50 times a day. It won't take long. I rarely shoot a P22 in DA myself but have no problem pulling the trigger in DA. 70 in a couple of months.

I had a neighbor hand me a new IA PPK/S stainless because he couldn't cycle the slide. He could not cycle my .32 PP either. He is 70 and looks fit. A brother in law and ex Marine can not cycle these either. They need to get with it and get in better shape. Neither is overweight or has any arthritis or other problems. Everyone feels better with exercise. I will really be aggravated if I can't operate the slide on anything at age 80. 1917
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks, 1917. I'm using a GripMaster exercise device I've had for a few years and that should help .You misunderstood my question. Right now I have almost no overtravel in both DA and SA. I was asking if I remove about 1/16" or so from the rear face of the trigger (not add to the trigger as in your photo) that will increase the overtravel. I think that might help with the trigger operation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,423 Posts
I don't know the answer to that one. Presently the rear of the trigger smacks into the grip at the rear of the trigger guard after releasing the hammer. Will the internal linkage stop further movement rearward. I'm not sure. I expect it will move a bit further rearward but hammer release will be at the same point. That is controlled by the internal parts that are carefully preset for proper timing. I think removing material from the rear of the trigger will not have any impact on DA or SA trigger pull nor will it allow you to hold the trigger in a more rearward position before releasing the hammer. Any such work would have to be done internally and to the trigger bar...but that is a slippery slope as everything is carefully timed. 1917
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,423 Posts


If you have never studied on how the P22 works internally or disassembled one the above picture might help. What I have done is remove the slide, grip and left side of the frame. I've also removed the mainspring and sear spring. Why??? Because it is hard to position everything for photos while fighting springs.

DA pull. On the very far left you can see the upper portion of the trigger and the trigger spring. Here a magazine has been inserted in order to press the magazine disconnect up and away from the top of the trigger bar. All the safety does is press down on top of the trigger bar which keeps it from being able to rise and engage the hammer strut and sear. The two expanded tabs on the front of the magazine press it upward and disengage it.

As pictured what is happening is that the light weight trigger spring has lifted the rear of the trigger bar causing the center portion of it to engage a slot on the front of the hammer strut. This is essential in DA since pulling the trigger moves the trigger bar more and more rearward which causes the hammer strut to rotate the hammer more and more rearward. Notice also the leg sticking up at the rear of the trigger bar. There are two. These engage the two bottom legs of the sear and rotate it out of the way of the falling hammer. It is essential that the trigger bar spring be strong enough to hold the rear of the trigger bar up.

Next, notice the slanting steel pin on the right side of the frame half and located under the sear. As the trigger is pulled more and more, the hammer is rotated more and more rearward. So when and how is the hammer released in DA. First, the sear is never engaged with the hammer. The sear is rotated out of the way and kept out of the way. The hammer strut is being pressed rearward by the center portion of the trigger bar. As the trigger bar moves rearward the outer shoulders at the rear engage the slanting steel rods. These begin to make the rear of the trigger bar slide downward until the center portion releases the hammer strut. The hammer falls and the pistol fires.

In SA the sear actually has caught the hammer on the primary hook and is holding it fully cocked. In SA, the legs on the top, rear of the trigger bar physically rotate the sear counterclockwise causing it to disengage from the hammer hook. The hammer drops and the pistol fires.

In both modes the trigger bar holds the sear out of the way of the falling hammer and continues to hold it there until narrow ramps under each slide of the slide hit the trigger bar ears which knocks them/trigger bar downward and disconnects it from the sear. The sear then rotates very quickly to catch the hammer in the cocked position. The sear is spring loaded to press against the hammer at all times unless the rear trigger bar legs engage and rotate it away from the hammer.

So, SA release is by the real sear while DA release is by the rear center of the trigger bar sliding off the bottom of the hammer strut. I did a whole thread on this with more pictures but photobucket threw us under the bus and while I still have them hosted elsewhere I have never put them back into the thread. I need to do that.

The point of all this is to show the complexity of timing of the various actions going on inside of the pistol and why you have to be really careful before modifying things. From what I see, removing material from the rear of the exposed trigger would not benefit anything nor would it have any effect on the timing of release of the hammer in DA or SA. The hammer spring is 8 lbs and below 7 lbs you will begin to get light strikes...so, weakening the mainspring is not a good idea. I've done all of this in the past and there are threads on what I learned. I do polish the outer top edges of the trigger bar to make sure they slide down the steel pins with as much smoothness as possible but to be honest....I never felt any difference and don't fire much in DA to begin with. 1917
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,423 Posts
I also don't know the answer to this one. On my target pistol I've removed the hammer strut. Why? I don't fire the pistol in DA and removing the strut allows the trigger to reset almost immediately. So I was able to install pre and post travel stops for a total trigger movement of 3/16". Add a 2.25 lb trigger pull due to some hammer hook work and you have a very smooth shooting pistol. Trigger safe but barely moving.

But here is the question....it seems that my hammer spring isn't lasting as long as it should...it is getting over wound and weakening for some reason. The question then becomes, does the strut stop rearward momentum movement of the hammer as the slide kicks it rearward? Without the strut, is the hammer free to rotate too much for the spring? This seems not possible as the hammer really moves a long way rearward when the slide moves it and there really isn't much room left before the hammer is stopped even with the strut removed. I haven't sorted that one yet.

If the current spring does not last long I am going to modify a hammer strut by removing the lower portion that engages the center of the trigger bar. I will leave the nose which pulls the trigger bar rearward and the trigger for SA shooting. I have stops installed which will not let the trigger move forward anyway but perhaps the nose of the hammer strut is stopped by the inside of the rear of the trigger bar which of course would stop rearward movement of the hammer. If so, I've never felt it while firing. But this would seem to be easy to test. 1917
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I received the Timney trigger gauge today (0 to 25 pounds). My P22 (unfired, using a yellow wall anchor as a snap cap) measured one 12.5#, one 12#, and nine readings between 10.75# and 11.5# with an average of 11.35#, well within specs. The two 12 readings may have been placement if the hook of the gauge. This shows my P22 is fine and my hands need work (working on that).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Need a little help. My P22 trigger pull is, on average, about 11 to 12 pounds. Every now and then the trigger pull jumps to 15 pounds. I want to remove the fire control unit from the grip and check for any debris left over from manufacturing that might be causing the jump in pull. Will the FCU just pull out of the grip if I remove the two pins in the grip? What do I have to be careful of (FCU coming apart, parts falling out)?


Now, I realize that I will not use the DA feature much, if at all. When you rack the slide to load the P22, it is in SA mode and good to go.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,423 Posts
You have the new QD model so unless you have the safety lever set to fire, cycling the slide will not cock the hammer. It will only cock if the safety lever is set to the fire position. It will of course go to SA automatically while you are firing. You can also set the safety lever to the fire position and manually cock the hammer....which is what I do. I only cock just before I'm ready to fire. And I'm still not sold on the decocker. Guess I'm still used to the old system.

Now as far as getting into the guts of the pistol...it isn't that simple. You can remove the grip by driving out the two roll pins. You then work the grip down and off the frame halves which are screwed together. The only thing to watch for at this point is the slide hold open lever and the small spring that operates it. This is located on the left side of the frame half. What you need to do is place a thumb over the lever and spring as you finish pulling the grip off. Mag removed of course and pistol unloaded. As you begin the work the grip off you will see the stop arm and spring. The danger is the little fellow can fly away and it is hard to find. Some people disassemble inside a large plastic bag. There isn't any issue if you know to place your thumb over it.

I would have removed the first but you can remove it now.

To get into the center of the pistol as shown in my earlier photo you have to remove the two screws on the right side. This will allow the frame halves to be separated. Several of the parts are under spring pressure.....hammer, sear, trigger.....so, if you aren't very good at this type of stuff....I'd leave it alone. But if your are then there are several things to fluff and buff while you are in there. Essentially you are taking the entire pistol apart. There are a couple of tricks to putting it back together and if you get into it I can guide you. The old so called P22 bible goes into complete disassembly and reassembly. That thing was put together by someone and is nothing more than some posts I've done over the years.

What I'm trying to figure out is why your trigger pull is varying that much and what you might do to make it smoother and more uniform if you take the pistol apart. I think I would just concentrate on SA shooting. These aren't self defense firearms. 1917
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,423 Posts
It might be your pull technique that is off. Make sure the gauge is exactly placed each time, the pistol held firmly and without moving and the gauge is pulled smoothy and with the same speed.

The trigger doesn't really drag on anything of significance. The rear, top, outer shoulders of the trigger bar slide down two steel pins molded into the sides of the frame halves. These force the trigger bar down and cause it to disconnect with the hammer strut. The top legs rotate the sear out of the way. So, you are rotating the sear against a small spring and cocking the hammer against a fairly stiff spring. The only thing I polish in the whole line is that top, outer shoulder of the trigger bar but I doubt that is causing the difference. 1917
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Thanks, 1917. I'll just pull the internal assembly and clean it out and look for any trash that mat be there, blow it out, lube and let it go at that. You're right that the DA feature is the least used feature. The vast majority of any shooting will be SA.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,423 Posts
You can clean everything that needs cleaning with a simple field strip. Remove the slide and magazine. Barrel and chamber is right there. The sear is totally exposed. Magazines need cleaning on the inside as well as the outside. 1917
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
1917, thanks again. I removed the fire control unit, cleaned it, blew it out with a duster canister and oiled it with Militec-1. I did it in a 2.5 gallon bag. I did not take the fcu apart. You are right about that slide lock spring. It is REALLY small and fine. If you drop or lose it. it is gone, never to be found. I'm not sure if anything came out of the fcu but the DA pull seems fine now. I haven't had any jump in the pull. Now all I have to do is get to the range and shoot it.
 
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
Top