[BessonGuy]

I was at the gun shop last night. The owner insisted that some parts of the P99 are made in the US to get around certain import taxes or restrictions. He says he heard it from an S+W rep. I couldn't change his mind. He treated me like I was wrong and didn't know better. My common sense argument was that they would have to ship parts to the US, add the US parts during assembly, ship it back to Ulm to proof, and then back to the US. He wouldn't listen.

Anyways, does anyone have correspondence with Walther or product literature stating the gun is 100% German (or at least 0% S&W)? I know about the FAQ page, but something official would be good. (not counting the .40s that were SW slides) I’m not trying to be a know it all, but I hate to see sales people spreading inaccurate technical information, must be the engineer in me.

Thanks,
Don

PS Take it easy on me, this is my first post here. I did search, the best I found was the proof mark argument, nothing ‘official’. I picked up my .40 last night. I have about 6k rnds through my 9.

 

[MoparMagnum1969]

My P99 is not 100% German...it's only 99.9% German. The last .1% is the engraving of the Smith and Wesson name that soiled my slide before my fine weapon reached my local store.

 

[ASCI White]

At one time Smith was making slides and barrels for the .40 P99. Apparently this was just a temporary thing because I was in one of my local shops not too long ago (when I got my P99QA) and saw a .40 with the all German markings.

 

[banddr2]

Another anti S&W comment(sorry). I unloaded one of the .40's Smith made because it was very unaccurate. Sloppy barrel hood to ejection port fit. I didn't know any better at the time I bought it, but got frustrated at my range results(it was not Walther accuracy I expected) until I rented a 40 Sig Pro (the only 40 they had) and could keep them in the 10 ring. I sold mine and would advise anyone to stay away from the .40's made by S&W.

This is off the subject a bit, but I just bought one of the surplus Walther P1's for $300 and it is the most accurate 9mm I have yet to shoot. Great reliability and it feeds hollow points great. Mine must be at least 35 yrs old and a great shooter. A testimate to Walther quality!!

 

[kearsage]

Now you know why U.N.C.L.E. made a modified version of the P-38/P-1 the weapon of choice for their agents Napoleon Solo,  Illya Kuryakin, April Dancer, and Mark Slate.  

 

[gmchenry]

Quote[/b] (banddr2 @ Nov. 13 2003,10:13)]Another anti S&W comment(sorry).  I unloaded one of the .40's Smith made because it was very unaccurate.  Sloppy barrel hood to ejection port fit.  I didn't know any better at the time I bought it, but got frustrated at my range results(it was not Walther accuracy I expected) until I rented a 40 Sig Pro (the only 40 they had) and could keep them in the 10 ring.  I sold mine and would advise anyone to stay away from the .40's made by S&W.

And I have not had that experience.  My SW99 .40 and .45 are both as accurate as my friends' P99's.  My SW99 .40 also doesn't have problems going into full battery like my friend's P99 .40, since S&W relieves the underside of the barrel where the recoil spring can rub at the breech end of the barrel.  I would advise anyone to purchase a .40 S&W.

YMMV.

 

[banddr2]

I admit that it could have been shooter error, or i just could not shoot this one well, or mine was made at 4:45 on a Friday by an employee who was leaving the company. I could of sent it back for reworking and I am sure Smith & Wesson would of made it good. I am just the sort that expects a self defense firearm to be right the first time and I don't have patience with warrenty work. I was mostly dissapointed because it had Walther's name on it. I am sure MOST Smith made .40's are fine.

 

[P88]

You know, I wouldn't doubt at all that S&W is still making parts for both the 9mm and .40 S&W P99's. I've seen a few brand new P99's in which the quality just isn't the same as the first P99's that hit these shores. I would almost bet that S&W wised up to the outpouring of angry customers who found out that their .40's weren't all German made and started putting the nitro mark on the guns. This would not surprise me at all!! They've lied to their customers in the past and they've lied to me personally. (Walther made up for that one, by the way). But S&W has not been very truthful.

 

[DJ E.]

Quote[/b] (P88 @ Nov. 16 2003,10:10)]They've lied to their customers in the past and they've lied to me personally.  (Walther made up for that one, by the way).  But S&W has not been very truthful.

If not too much trouble, you think you can elaborate on how S&W lied to you? No flame or anything, just curious...

DJ

 

[gmchenry]

I would also like to hear 'the rest of the story'. S&W has always been very straight forward with me and always stood behind their products.

 

[P88]

To make it short it all had to do with them agreeing to make me some special edition P99's. Money was sent and then over a month later I found out that they lied to me about making them for me. Luckily I got my money back and Walther Germany found out what had happened and made the pistols for me.

I think I've posted about this before. I'll try to find the original post and put a link to it.

 

[gmchenry]

Thanks. How long ago was this?

 

[banddr2]

I think it is all about marketing and profitability these days. Collectors like I am looking for guns to be what they say they are. A year ago I purchased a Sig 228 thinking it was German made. It said made in Germany all over it but I found out since the only proof mark on it was a circled R on the locking lug of the barrel that it was actually assembled in the US. To me this isn't 100% German made if assembly is in the US. Same with the P99 40 I had. And then I hear rumors, and they are rumors that may or may not be true, that S&W proof marked some guns to lead us to believe they were made in Germany. Not that there is anything wrong with made in America, but what happened to truth in advertising? These companies are only damaging themselves when they false advertise. My current interest has turned to used pistols of 15 or more years old just because I don't trust the honesty of the current company practices and am not sure who to trust.

Ok I feel better now.

If assembled or made in the US, stamp it on it!!

 

[DJ E.]

banddr2-Amen brother!

 

[gmchenry]

It seems to me there is a lot of assuming going on. SIG is a Swiss company and J.P. Sauer&Sohn is a German company. SIGARMS is in New Hampshire and started manufacturing in the US in 1992. Why would you just assume it was German made? You obviously have access to the wealth of information on the Internet.

Then you hear "rumors" and assume a company would go so far as to break the importation laws, without any evidence, at the risk of damaging their name and 150+ year old reputation, to mislead a few customers.

 

[banddr2]

Yes, I am glad I found forums like this & I have learned alot that I did not know before from knowledgeable members. I have received more accurate information from these forums than I have from some local gun shops. There is alot of mis-information spread by shop salemen. In my personal experience my local gun shops have been wrong more than right about the origin of the firearms they sell. Now I research before I buy.

 

[TheMariner]

The most knowledgable people I meet in the business run a range alongside their store. I go to a range in Lexington, Ky where the guys sell mostly Glock but some other stuff. Real nice and really smart. If they don't know, they say so.

 

[BessonGuy]

Thanks for all the asides and assumptions, they are interesting to read.

So back to my original question: Does anyone have any promotional material or correspondance stating that the P99 is all German (minus import markings)?

As far as gun shops with ranges knowing more, I don't think that will always be the case, or even a general trend. Some shops know their stuff, some do not. The shop mentioned in my original post has a brand new 16 lane range in a new building. They likely have experience with durability of the rental guns, but as far as manufacturing and engineering information, I doubt it.

Happy turkey day!

Don

 

[banddr2]

Sorry Bessonguy,  I am afraid your question may be an unanswerable mystery, unless someone from Walther or Smith & Wesson come up with an answer.  I do know that pistols cannot leave Germany for sale unless they are proofed on the slide, frame and barrel.  I am not sure what rules apply once pistols or parts arrive to be assembled in the US.  When I find an older used sig or walther, they have all three compenents proofed marked.

Side question: Are you a cornet player?  I play a Besson cornet & tenor horn.