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Hellcat vs Sig 365 Review - Shot both today

10K views 91 replies 22 participants last post by  BornFighting88 
#1 ·
So, I have some experience with the 365, don’t own one yet, but I do have an SAS on order.

I did put 50 rounds through a HC today and another 50 through a 365 XL.

Wanted to share some thoughts on both....

I wanted to hate the HC, but I just couldn’t. The two guns are very similar. So let’s focus on the differences:

- The HC sights are very unique and much more visible than those on the 365. The HC sights seemed a lot better for fast acquisition but made the gun a little harder to shoot more accurately.

- Felt recoil and muzzle flip seemed exactly the same. With eyes closed, I don’t think anyone could tell the difference. Even with the higher bore axis in the HC.

- The HC feels a little fatter. And as such, I think the grip was a bit....wait for it....better.

- The 365 was a lot easier to shoot more precisely...for sure. But with a little practice the HC groups improved.

- The triggers are very similar. But the Sig trigger was better. And by better, I mean that the break seemed more crisp and defined. But in actual shooting, it was hard to discern.

Let me be frank......the two guns seem a horse a piece. The Sig should be a better gun, but I honestly think they are so close that it will come down to personal preference. For that reason, I was surprised.

I think that Springfield really executed their gun pretty darn good. While it hasn’t stood the test of time yet unlike the 365, which is a platform that initially had issues.

Accuracy of the two guns was similar but the 365 was better. I am sharing two targets below. Each has 25 rounds fired at it. 10 rounds at 15 ft, 10 rounds at 25 ft and 5 rounds at 50 ft. The HC could t keep up with the Sig at 50 ft, but most of that I think was due to the sights. For a carry gun 50ft is really pointless.

Had I had more time I would have done my 6 dot transition drill which would have been a better evaluation.

The fliers on the HC were all at 50 ft. And yes....was shooting left. Ugh. All shots were fired two handed unsupported.

I would consider my shooting skills pretty solid. I would need a little more time.
 

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#7 ·
Honestly guys, the guns shoot about the same. My first few rounds with the HC were way worse. But to be fair, I needed to get comfy with the gun. I am a precision shooter so I look at the small things. But ****....it’s a CC gun! And with the HC having better grips and purchase and what I think are better sights, the 365 is really just left with more market experience and a tad bit more accuracy.

Does one round make a difference? No! Only on paper. Who cares? It’s just bragging rights. As if one gun were 1 ounce lighter. Not a deal breaker.

If I were to pick ONE of these, it would be neither. It would be the 365 SAS. But I’ll wait until I shoot that one.
 
#9 ·
So, you’ve got the SAS on order. Let me aske you what you think of the ports and vent holes in the slide? (And, then I’ll ask you again later after you’ve shot it... <img src="http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/images/smilies/wink.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" class="inlineimg" /> )
.

I suspect I will love them. Can’t wait. But I’ll let you know.
 
#11 ·
I'm curious about the sights on the SAS. Sure they are great from a snag-ability standpoint, but can you hit what you want with them???

I realize they are not target sights despite the name but you still need to be able to shoot a reasonable level of close-in accuracy.
 
#13 ·
I read a review of that sight system (can’t remember where, or I would put up the link, sorry) and the reviewer said inside 5-7 yards they are really fast/usable with “combat accuracy” (about a hand-sized group centered in chest) just seeing the forward dot. He said for more precision, or shooting at longer distance, one had to acclimate to seeing the entire ring around the dot. He said seeing only part of the ring was no good, and learning to align for the whole ring wasn’t bad, but took some training time. With the forward dot centered in the ring, accuracy was just as good as any other iron sight system.
 
#12 ·
Went to the gun club/lgs yesterday to look at the inventory. While there I struck up a conversation with one of the newer sales tech's and discovered he was a former Sig field employee. He was part of their test group and had first hand experience with the 365's. He also had put quite a few rounds through the club's new Hellcat which gives him a great perspective for comparing the two. His comments were as follows:

Recoil virtually the same
Grips very similar in texture and fit....for his hands.
Both equally accurate.
No performance issues.
Not a fan of the 365 flat sights or the rear sight dots for SD use.
 
#19 ·
I have seen it. That guy is an arrogant prick. But so am I 🙂

My only concern with the gun though after watching it is the accuracy. Both of these guys seem like skilled shooters yet struggled with this gun.

I been told the same myself. lol


As as arrogant as that guy is the point that the Bullseye sight suck and that the slide release also sucks has been brought up in many other valid reviews.


Soooo.... no P365 in my rotation any time soon.


Good luck with your purchase and keep us updated on how it performs for you.
 
#18 ·
I'm waiting to actually handle one, perhaps at a gunshow this weekend. Have a P365 and like it very much, but it's almost small enough to pocket. Actually, you can pocket it, but drawing it can be a challenge, and the squared off rear sight is the biggest problem.
If the SAS let's me pocket a 9mm defense gun, I'll trade a little accuracy for that deal.
Moon
 
#20 ·
I agree. It's a matter of how much accuracy you give up for that clean slide profile.

For the up close and personal, save your bacon, type shooting the thing is designed for, maybe it's fine???

I believe the reviewer did concede the sights are very quick to acquire.

As a longtime fan of the J frame snub, I think it probable the issues noted with the SAS sights can be overcome. It might just take a little work. But that's a guess.

Hopefully I'll get to shoot one soon and see for myself.
 
#22 ·
I think the gun is supper cool. However I know the ports are controversial, the sights are controversial and so is the slide release. As long as the gun sling shots, who cares right?

The gun kind of reminds me of the new Jeep Gladiator. Is it super unnecessary or useful? Either way, not sure I care. I am giving it a try 🙂

The gun will only be a $150 mistake at least. The $550 I paid for it minus the $400 I could get for it used.
 
#23 ·
My understanding of the SAS design is to eliminate the possibility of snagging the pistol when pulled from a concealed holster. Once the pistol is drawn the SAS and the standard P365 are effectively equal. So the question arises as to how many deadly confrontations are decided by clearing the holster faster than the attacker. With a question like that I always refer to Dr. Bill Lewinski's test data that shows the following:

Behind the Curve

In one startling test, for example, a female volunteer who had never before held a firearm (simulating an inexperienced offender) was able to pull a hidden gun from her waistband and shoot at an officer in an average of 16/100 of a second. The typical officer going for his weapon in a Level I holster requires 1.5 seconds to draw and fire a sighted shot once he perceives a stimulus to act. "In 1.7 seconds, an attacker using a Glock 9mm pistol can deliver six rounds on average," Lewinski says. "Considering just reaction time alone, the officer is screwed."

Amazingly, that's true even if the officer has his gun out in a "ready" position and is mentally committed to defending his life once a lethal threat is evident. Lewinski compared the timing of the woman "assailant" against officers with guns held in the belt-tuck, low-ready, close-ready, and "Hollywood high-guard" positions. In every case, the woman with her hand on the hidden gun in her waistband was able to produce a deadly action faster than the officers could perceive the threat and respond with a defensive reaction. Lewinski independently and scientifically replicated these findings with other volunteers
.

That strongly suggests (to me) that the SAS would prove no better than the original P365 and other traditionally sighted pistols under the same conditions. I am also including a Sig video that includes range work in the last half. The demonstrator makes what I believe is an important comment regarding the sight acquisition at the 4:52 mark in the video.

 
#24 ·
My understanding of the SAS design is to eliminate the possibility of snagging the pistol when pulled from a concealed holster. Once the pistol is drawn the SAS and the standard P365 are effectively equal. So the question arises as to how many deadly confrontations are decided by clearing the holster faster than the attacker. With a question like that I always refer to Dr. Bill Lewinski's test data that shows the following:

Behind the Curve

In one startling test, for example, a female volunteer who had never before held a firearm (simulating an inexperienced offender) was able to pull a hidden gun from her waistband and shoot at an officer in an average of 16/100 of a second. The typical officer going for his weapon in a Level I holster requires 1.5 seconds to draw and fire a sighted shot once he perceives a stimulus to act. "In 1.7 seconds, an attacker using a Glock 9mm pistol can deliver six rounds on average," Lewinski says. "Considering just reaction time alone, the officer is screwed."

Amazingly, that's true even if the officer has his gun out in a "ready" position and is mentally committed to defending his life once a lethal threat is evident. Lewinski compared the timing of the woman "assailant" against officers with guns held in the belt-tuck, low-ready, close-ready, and "Hollywood high-guard" positions. In every case, the woman with her hand on the hidden gun in her waistband was able to produce a deadly action faster than the officers could perceive the threat and respond with a defensive reaction. Lewinski independently and scientifically replicated these findings with other volunteers
.

That strongly suggests (to me) that the SAS would prove no better than the original P365 and other traditionally sighted pistols under the same conditions. I am also including a Sig video that includes range work in the last half. The demonstrator makes what I believe is an important comment regarding the sight acquisition at the 4:52 mark in the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZejFxSZxQio

Hello Chandler. My take is the SAS features are about pocket carry. At least the scenario where those features really come in to play is pocket carry.

I could be wrong. That's just my take.
 
#29 ·
Actually, an exception to what I said above is the ported barrel. I'm not sure what that is about. I mean I understand the idea is to tame muzzle flip but...the feature seems out of place on a small carry/self defense gun.

Porting has been debated on this forum and others forever. I can't add anything to that debate, just that it seems a little out of place on this particular gun.
 
#30 ·
  • Smoothing out the pistol for pocket carry? Check!
  • Implementing some innovative defensive sights, while at it? Check!
  • Porting the barrel/slide? Whoa! Whoa! You went too far for the practical crowd, SIG -- but tacticool aficionados will definitely bite.
 
#38 · (Edited)
Giving these comments of mine some thought, I've got an easy (theoretical, at this point) solution for the ported barrel -- see below in red.


Really hoping to handle one and experience the sights, but I really like the P365.
Proof will be in the pudding.
I had a SAS in my hands, today. After fondling it, I decided that I -will- be buying one, as it pointed very naturally for me and sight acquisition was VERY fast. Keep in mind that my current EDC (PPS Classic) is outfitted with XS Big Dots, so I'm already accustomed to defensive sights, complete with their advantages (speed) and drawbacks (not good for punching one ragged hole, but plenty fine for dropping bad guys at close range). I see the SAS's sights in the same vein as XS Big Dots, so I don't expect miracles out of them.

Note that I found the slide lock nearly impossible to actuate; it's inset far too deeply, and I don't have much in the way of finger nails. For me, this is fine, as I recognize that it's a slide lock (i.e. not a slide release), but I had to try using it as a release after chamber-checking the pistol, just to see if I could. (I couldn't.) Removing the magazine and then sling-shotting the slide works just fine, so I'm not bothered by how deeply the slide lock is recessed … but some people might be.

The trigger is, of course, mushy …. just like every other P365 I've handled. Takeup is longer than I'd like, as well … again, just like every other P365 I've handled. But … it's a carry gun … and it's tolerable. Certainly the trigger is better than my original LCP's was (prior to smithing it). As poor feeling as I consider the P365 triggers, I still think they feel better than S&W Shield triggers. Also, I'm sure that if there aren't aftermarket triggers/mods out there already for the P365 … there will be soon given the gun's popularity..

This brings me to the primary concern I had (beyond the sights possibly being a problem for me) -- the ported barrel. I believe (but have yet to confirm) that there's a stupidly simple solution to that for those interested: buy a standard P365 barrel … and replace the ported one with the standard one. That won't change the slide cuts, but it WILL address the increased noise problem -- as well as preclude blowing gas into one's face in very close quarters shooting (like say, inside a car or during a struggle to retain the weapon where one pulls the gun tightly to one's body in a partial crouch while still making use of it). Keep in mind that my loadout doesn't include +P rounds, so I have no need for recoil taming. I might tolerate the added noise of the ported barrel and slide if +P's were my thing, but they weren't and aren't.

I just got off the phone with the owner of my LGS, and he's got both a standard P365 and a SAS in stock … and said he'd give a barrel swap a try and let me know one way or the other if it's possible. (I see no reason why it wouldn't work, but it'll be nice to confirm, up front.)
 
#32 ·
Let’s be clear on this gun....in marketing, we call this a product extension. I must have been the target audience because I didn’t buy a 365 or an XL but I did an SAS 🙂

If we REALLY cared about being proficient with a carry gun, I think we would all admit, practice more than the tool itself is likely to lend good results. I might add too, that I am a kick boxer. I box 6 to 9 times a week religiously. In a confrontation I have options that most don’t have. In a fraction of a second I can put a guy on the ground and can probably do it faster than he can draw on me and he would never see it coming. I also practice disarming assailant. I am 5ft 9 inches and 175 lbs. I am not a big guy which I also thinks adds to the element of surprise.

A firearm is just a tool. Like a paintbrush, some people can draw stick figures and others can paint a chapel.

The best carry gun, is one that someone actually carries and is proficient in its use.

I carry about almost never. I do, however, plan to carry the SAS.
 
#33 ·
Well said Water. Well said.

Do let us know your impressions as you start working with that P365 SAS. It's a gun those dam marketing guys seem to have struck a nerve with fir a lot of us.

I still pocket carry an air weight "hammerless" J-frame. Sometimes something more capable but pretty much always that J-frame.

The hammerless, rounded profile, simple gutter type sight just work really well when presenting from a pocket. And yes, I understand the thing actually has a hammer.

The P365 SAS might be a gun that could finally get this dinosaur to replace that J-frame.

Thanks for taking the time to give us your honest impressions of the P365 SAS. Please keep it coming.
 
#34 ·
Thanks man!

J frames are so under stated. Such a great platform for deep conceal. I think if we were all honest with ourselves, a lot more of us would carry one. Low snag, reliable, get the job done kind of gun. Also...can be pretty beefy or very light....take your pick. Heavy, long trigger. Which is good for SD use. I have even toyed with the idea of getting one, doing a trigger job just to make sure it is smooth and perhaps a bit lighter.....maybe 8 lbs. I think I would stick with an exposed hammer but bob it.

But for some reason people have been convinced they need a gazillion high round capacity.

I remind my students in class....most self defense shootings happen at arms length and less than 3 rounds.
 
#35 ·
For that arms length encounter where three or less rounds are expended, the J frame is tough to beat.

If you are involved in a confrontation where you are knocked to the ground, off balance, have to fire from a less than perfect firing stance or grip, the J frame is tough to beat.

As a middle aged civilian that looks to stay out of trouble at this point in life, it handles what I'd consider the mostly likely unlikely scenarios.

I carry something more at times but that J frame has been a constant for a while now.
 
#36 ·
I wrote my original P365 review in January 2018 and that review was overall positive. I have not purchased the P365 primarily because at the time of my review the 365 was in the midst of several issues.....the firing pin weakness primary among them.

Today I fired the new Hellcat and while I did not experience any failures I have to say my pattern was less than desirable. Following 35 rounds I finally gave in and decided that my 2 year layoff affected me more than I suspected. Luckily I had taken my PPS and PPQ 45 which enabled me to verify whether it was the Hellcat or me. End results were as follows:

Target distance 21'.

Pattern Diameter & Ammo Used
Hellcat 8" Magtech 115gr fmj
PPS 3.5" Magtech 115gr fmj
PPQ 4" Federal Premium 230gr HST +P

Obviously the shooter played a part in the results but even though the Hellcat was completely new to me it was very comparable to the PPS in all respects. However, I have not fired the PPS in over 3 years and had less than 200 rounds total fired through it.

The preferred pistol for me is the P365.
 
#37 ·
As regards the J frame, I'm a Centennial junkie. There's no temptation to cock the hammer, the only control is the bang switch, and, in particular, you can choke higher on the humpback than is possible with an exposed hammer version. This effectively creates a lower bore axis.
I can pocket a J-gun, but it takes a big pocket. A G42 works much better, and I'm hoping the 365SAS will as well.
Moon
 
#41 ·
I picked up my SAS today....put about 50 rounds through it. Shot it fast....shot it slow.

The gun is cool as hell and I think it’s a home run. It’s perfect for what it is. I have not run it through it’s paces yet but did shoot it from from defensive positions.

Let’s address a few points. First the slide lock. It’s a lock and not a release. It’s barely usable as a release, so don’t use it as one.

Trigger is perfect for what the gun is designed for.

Sights. Take a little getting used to, but intuitive. They work.

Accuracy. Every round I fired was from 15 to 20 ft. Nothing crazy. Every shot...every shot went center of mass. The last ten rounds were less then 3” inches apart. It’s not a Shadow 2, a Sig P210 or a 1911, but it’s accurate enough. More important it’s predictable.

Recoil? Rather, what recoil?. The most astonishing thing about the gun is that it’s a 9mm that shoots like a 380. The ported slide and barrel work. This gun is very easy to get multiple rounds on target quickly. When I get back to the range, I will show you what I mean with photos. At 15 ft, with no practice I could empty a magazine as fast as I could pump the trigger and every round hit center of mass. Every round. That says a lot for a gun this small.

I fired the gun up to my body in the close ready position.....no issues at all with the ports. The decibel level, to me, not an issue. It’s a non issue at least with muffs on.

Here is the thing, if you want a small gun, that shoots like a much bigger gun, has great capacity and conceals like a gun smaller than it really is, I don’t think there is anything better than this gun. Nothing I have ever fired. I don’t thing the SAS has a real competitor in regards to what it actually delivers. Is it a gun for everyone? No.
 
#50 ·
Had a Hellcat in my hands today at the gun show.

Utterly meh. Just another polymer framed pistol in an over saturated market with nothing to recommend it over the competition. Springfield's polymer Croatian pistols have never done anything for me, and this one continues the trend. I just do not see the appeal.
 
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