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Gap between slide release and slide. Possibly due to melting or overheating.

11818 Views 57 Replies 18 Participants Last post by  rifleshooter474, 
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First post here.

I got my PPQ 9 four days ago. I have taken it out to shoot twice now. I love the ergonomics and the functionality of virtually everything on this gun. The only thing I am having trouble getting used to is the slightly higher muzzle flip. I personally attribute this to its lighter weight though, and as I have been perfecting my grip, I notice I am on target anyway with this weapon. Of course I love the trigger.

I have only shot this weapon twice. The first time, I put 15 rounds through it. The second time I shot it was a day later, yesterday... Monday the 4th of June. Here in Tennessee it was easily 90 degrees outside, and my goal was to put the weapon through its paces. I pushed just over 300 rounds through it. All rounds fired were all stock blazer brass. I had no FTF's or FTE's. The weapon was functionally perfect the whole time and a joy to shoot.

The problem;
The issues I have are small ones, but I wanted to make note of them here in the forum because they occurred after only one day of heavy shooting. Obviously they could turn out to be big problems. The first thing I noticed was that the area of the rails on the frame body at the front of the gun where the guide rod is seemed to be changing shape. The weapon was rather hot and the composite material seemed to be warping. I have confirmed this by looking at that area, and the right side rail has a very slightly higher curvature than the left side now.

The second problem, which I believe could be a more substantial problem is that the middle section of the gun that holds the slide lock seems to have shifted. Now there is a gap between the left slide lock lever and the left side of the gun body. It is a very small gap, but it is there. On the right side, the slide lock lever is flush against the body. Before I shot the gun yesterday, the slide lock lever was equidistant from the body on both sides. I can take my finger and push the slide lock lever toward the body on the left side and it moves. The slide lock lever on the right side also moves when I push on the left side.

Another way I confirmed that the slide lock lever had shifted is I took the slide off and physically bent the grip assembly. I can bend it at room temperature just enough to see the slide lock lever shift back into perfect position.

I believe that this problem is occuring because of the way the slide lock mechanism puts pressure on the left side of the gun. As the gun heated up, the composite became softer. As the pressure from the spring pushed the slide forward, the area where the slide lock lever connects to the body is the point of stress and its natural response to this stress is to shift outward from the weapon. When the slide locks back after the magazine empties, the slide is hottest directly above the trigger and the point where the slide lock lever connects to the trigger assembly. So, that point of stress is where the heat is.

So far this problem has not manifested into any tangible issues. The gun still functions 100% and I plan to take it shooting again today. I can't afford to simulate the conditions I created yesterday though because 300 rounds is expensive.

I just wanted to talk about this on the forum because I can see a potential engineering issue here and potential for failure of the slide lock lever, or even more critical components when there is a high temperature outside and the gun is under high stress from firing a bunch of rounds. I only fired 300 rounds and it was only 90 degrees out. I was not dumping magazine after magazine. I only own three magazines, and usually I would only dump one out of three and then I would give the gun a break as I reloaded all. Sometimes, I was shooting other guns in between firing the PPQ also. So the conditions I put it through were not unusual other than I fired a lot of rounds.

I would like to reiterate that so far the shifting I have seen in the composite along the rails and the slide release lever is extremely small, but it does exist. It has so far led to zero functionality issues for me. If people want pictures, I can post them if someone tells me how to do so.
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D
Pictures would be great. Not sure how to post them though.

No offense but I think you are being way too OCD. As far as rails are you talking about the rail for attaching lights? Because of the nature of polymer frames and the way they are molded, sometimes there are very slight variations. I think you are just noticing this for the first time and/or looking at it from a slightly different angle.

As for the ambi slide lock lever they are connected so if you press on one half the other moves slightly. Of course as you start to use the gun and break it in, the levers will slightly losen. I've shot over 1,700 rounds through my PPQ and more than 450 quickly where the gun was too hot to touch the slide and never had any problems and that's shooting in an oven of an indoor range in Florida no less.

I had an HK USP .40 that I could push the safety/decock lever and slide release side to side way more than a "broken in" PPQ.
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Dcowboyscr said:
Pictures would be great. Not sure how to post them though.

No offense but I think you are being way too OCD. As far as rails are you talking about the rail for attaching lights? Because of the nature of polymer frames and the way they are molded, sometimes there are very slight variations. I think you are just noticing this for the first time and/or looking at it from a slightly different angle.

As for the ambi slide lock lever they are connected so if you press on one half the other moves slightly. Of course as you start to use the gun and break it in, the levers will slightly losen. I've shot over 1,700 rounds through my PPQ and more than 450 quickly where the gun was too hot to touch the slide and never had any problems and that's shooting in an oven of an indoor range in Florida no less.

I had an HK USP .40 that I could push the safety/decock lever and slide release side to side way more than a "broken in" PPQ.
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You probably are correct in that I am a bit OCD, but I do see a stress point which is inherent to the design. Since the catch on the slide release lever is only on the left side, and since the heat from the slide is over the connection point where the slide release lever attaches to the body, the tension is being held by the slide release lever at an anchor point that is weakened by the heat. I doubt this could cause failure to lock the slide under most conditions, but if the sun was involved in a 100+ degree environment, I could see how it would happen. It would basically require the polymer to get so hot that the tension on the slide release lever would warp the middle section of the weapon. The tension from the spring on this gun is pretty high, so when combined with extreme heat, I could see this as a point of failure.

Under normal conditions, I cant see this happening however. I can't see a real life situation where rapidly dumping 500 rounds through a pistol in 100+ degrees and direct sunlight would ever occur. I will however make sure that when I am shooting high round counts I am doing so in the shade in the future.

When I was referring to the rails, I was referring to the inner rails that the slide moves along on the front of the gun. I am not sure what these are called.
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liquidify said:
but if the sun was involved in a 100+ degree environment, I could see how it would happen. It would basically require the polymer to get so hot that the tension on the slide release lever would warp the middle section of the weapon. The tension from the spring on this gun is pretty high, so when combined with extreme heat, I could see this as a point of failure.
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I'm gonna guess that an ambient temp of 100F is not going to make much of a difference in that situation, sustained rapid-firing is going to reach temps far in excess of that 100F anyway. All that means is that that the gun will reach those operating temps faster. For comparison, 100F is approximately the temp of a hot jacuzzi. That's not exactly extreme in the world of polymers.

Which makes me think that Walther engineers would have picked a polymer with a melting, or deformation, point far beyond cycling temperatures.

I read somewhere that most polymer handguns use a variation of Nylon-6(or something similar) with additives like glass fiber to enhance tensile strength.
The deflection temperature is a measure of a polymer's ability to bear a given load at elevated temperatures. The deflection temperature is also known as the 'deflection temperature under load' (DTUL), 'heat deflection temperature', or 'heat distortion temperature' (HDT).
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This table provides the Typical Deflection Temperatures and Melting Points of Polymers from this web page.

In it, you can see the typical deformation temperature for Nylon-6 at 66 psi is 160C(320F), and Nylon-6+30% glass fiber is 220C(428F). I assume the amount of pressure put on the slide lock is close to, and not in excess of, 66psi.

Under normal conditions, I cant see this happening however. I can't see a real life situation where rapidly dumping 500 rounds through a pistol in 100+ degrees and direct sunlight would ever occur.
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I can't picture a situation where someone is going to rapid fire through 25-35 full 15 or 20 round magazines without stopping. And if anyone does, they kind of deserve to screw up their $500 pistol. It's not supposed to be a sub-machine gun.
I will however make sure that when I am shooting high round counts I am doing so in the shade in the future.
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I'm guessing that shooting in 100+ degree sun is more a danger to your own health than that of the gun.
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rifleshooter474
DrMoebius said:
I'm gonna guess that an ambient temp of 100F is not going to make much of a difference in that situation, sustained rapid-firing is going to reach temps far in excess of that 100F anyway. All that means is that that the gun will reach those operating temps faster. For comparison, 100F is approximately the temp of a hot jacuzzi. That's not exactly extreme in the world of polymers.

Which makes me think that Walther engineers would have picked a polymer with a melting, or deformation, point far beyond cycling temperatures.

I read somewhere that most polymer handguns use a variation of Nylon-6(or something similar) with additives like glass fiber to enhance tensile strength. This table provides the Typical Deflection Temperatures and Melting Points of Polymers from this web page.

In it, you can see the typical deformation temperature for Nylon-6 at 66 psi is 160C(320F), and Nylon-6+30% glass fiber is 220C(428F). I assume the amount of pressure put on the slide lock is close to, and not in excess of, 66psi.

I can't picture a situation where someone is going to rapid fire through 25-35 full 15 or 20 round magazines without stopping. And if anyone does, they kind of deserve to screw up their $500 pistol. It's not supposed to be a sub-machine gun. I'm guessing that shooting in 100+ degree sun is more a danger to your own health than that of the gun.
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A lot of people have been shooting both the P99 and PPQs in 9mm and .40s&w. I have not read of any of this type item before.
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rifleshooter474 said:
A lot of people have been shooting both the P99 and PPQs in 9mm and .40s&w. I have not read of any of this type item before.
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The problem wouldn't be unique to just Walthers - just about every polymer gun uses a similar slide lock design. And there are are a whole lotta Glocks, HK's, MPs, etc out there. I'd think this potential deformation issue would have been a widespread issue with the millions of polymers out there by now if the OPs concerns were valid.
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searcher451
This is a new one on me.

In the event that photos are deemed to be either necessary or hepful to make a determination of the issue at hand, this will help:

http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/...10404-tips-shooting-posting-great-photos.html
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DrMoebius said:
I can't picture a situation where someone is going to rapid fire through 25-35 full 15 or 20 round magazines without stopping. And if anyone does, they kind of deserve to screw up their $500 pistol. It's not supposed to be a sub-machine gun. I'm guessing that shooting in 100+ degree sun is more a danger to your own health than that of the gun.
Click to expand...

I am with you, but there clearly has been a deformation in the polymer of my gun. Otherwise, the slide lock lever would be in the same position as it was the day before I shot all those rounds. Also the front rail area would be strait.

It however is not and thus a deformation (however small) occurred. Obviously since the deformation occurred, I either have a gun that is an unusual example, or I have found something that could represent a systemic problem.
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searcher451 said:
This is a new one on me.

In the event that photos are deemed to be either necessary or hepful to make a determination of the issue at hand, this will help:

http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/...10404-tips-shooting-posting-great-photos.html
Click to expand...

Thanks, I am taking pictures now, but they are very difficult to take. because the amount of curvature I am describing is very difficult to see.
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jonm61
liquidify said:
You probably are correct in that I am a bit OCD, but I do see a stress point which is inherent to the design. Since the catch on the slide release lever is only on the left side, and since the heat from the slide is over the connection point where the slide release lever attaches to the body, the tension is being held by the slide release lever at an anchor point that is weakened by the heat. I doubt this could cause failure to lock the slide under most conditions, but if the sun was involved in a 100+ degree environment, I could see how it would happen. It would basically require the polymer to get so hot that the tension on the slide release lever would warp the middle section of the weapon. The tension from the spring on this gun is pretty high, so when combined with extreme heat, I could see this as a point of failure.

Under normal conditions, I cant see this happening however. I can't see a real life situation where rapidly dumping 500 rounds through a pistol in 100+ degrees and direct sunlight would ever occur. I will however make sure that when I am shooting high round counts I am doing so in the shade in the future.

When I was referring to the rails, I was referring to the inner rails that the slide moves along on the front of the gun. I am not sure what these are called.
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You're shooting a gun based on a 15 year old design. That ambi slide lock has been around for as, or nearly as, long as the P99. If there were an inherent design flaw, I can guarantee you that in the hundreds of thousands of guns Walther has put into worldwide use during that time, from civilians in the U.S. to various police and military forces around the world, it would've been found by now.

As far as the slide rails, mine appear to be the same as you're describing, with the right slightly higher than the left. It's really hard to tell by eyeball, though, and any difference there is so small as to be insignificant.

The PPQ is a combat handgun. It is, by design, a little loosely fitted. That helps the gun continue to function when dirty. Not just shooting dirty; dropped in the mud dirty. As long the gun's functional, minor differences like that are meaningless.

liquidify said:
I am with you, but there clearly has been a deformation in the polymer of my gun. Otherwise, the slide lock lever would be in the same position as it was the day before I shot all those rounds. Also the front rail area would be strait.

It however is not and thus a deformation (however small) occurred. Obviously since the deformation occurred, I either have a gun that is an unusual example, or I have found something that could represent a systemic problem.
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It's far more likely that the slide lock lever itself loosened up, rather than the frame warping after a few hundred rounds. We have seen a couple and I mean 2 or 3, defective slide lock levers, but they literally broke. As long as the gun is functioning correctly, stop worrying about it and shoot it.


Unless you're an engineer who specializes in firearm design or plastics, and you happen to have more experience or otherwise are smarter than Walther's engineers, who have been behind this design for over 15 years, put the OCD on hold and enjoy your new gun.
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MistWolf
If the pistol truly is deformed for whatever reason, the manufacturer should be contacted and given a chance to address the problem before this thread goes much further
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I'm curious enough to want to see some pictures.

I have only shot this weapon twice. The first time, I put 15 rounds through it. The second time I shot it was a day later, yesterday... Monday the 4th of June. Here in Tennessee it was easily 90 degrees outside, and my goal was to put the weapon through its paces. I pushed just over 300 rounds through it. All rounds fired were all stock blazer brass. I had no FTF's or FTE's. The weapon was functionally perfect the whole time and a joy to shoot.
Click to expand...
How long did it take for you to fire these 300 rounds?

These same ambidextrous slide release levers have been in use since at least 2004, on the P99.

Third picture from the left:

FAQ VIII-10

This is the first I've heard of a design issue with these levers. I would think that with the police and military contracts that the P99 has gotten, that this issue would have either popped up and been reported, or would have been fixed in the 7 years between when the design of these levers was released on the P99 (2004), and when the PPQ was released (2011).

I've gotten a 10mm Glock 20 and a 9mm FN FNX hot enough to get the dust cover (area above the accessory rail) to bend upwards and touch the slide. It only took a few mags rapid fire on these two pistols. I've shot my P99 and PPQ as fast as those two, and more than likely faster, and gotten my Walthers as hot as the Glock and FN, and more than likely hotter, and the dust covers on both my P99 and PPQ are as straight as they were when new.

I've never had a dust cover bend upwards in an H&K either, and I've shot my USPc and P30S pretty fast as well. Both Walther and H&K use fiberglass reinforced polymer frames, which makes them seem more rigid, to me at least, than the frames of other polymer pistols.

How long did it take you to fire off those 300 rounds in your PPQ?

Here is a 1000 round test done by James Yeager on a Glock 19:

Part 1

Part 2

Notice how the "drop free" mags didn't want to drop free as the test went on, and how before the test was completed, the stock guide rod melted and came out of the front of the pistol. Is there a design flaw with the stock magazines and guide rod on Glock pistols, or was the design pushed beyond it's limits only when reality was pushed beyond it's limits on how many rounds would realistically have to be fired through a pistol at any point in time without letting it cool off first?

If you shoot any polymer framed pistol long enough, and get it hot enough, changes will take place. This doesn't necessarily mean there is a design flaw with the design, it just means that you have found the limit that the pistol can take before the changes occur.

I remember shooting about 100 rounds rapid fire out of my P99, using four factory 15rd mags and two factory 10rd mags, loading them up as fast as I could after I ran out of loaded mags, and shooting them at a target. This was after a range session where I had already shot a few hundred rounds out of the pistol in an indoor range. The pistol was very hot, but I noticed no changes on the frame of my P99. I've done the same with my PPQ, once, and I don't see any changes in it right now as I'm looking for some.
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jonm61 said:
You're shooting a gun based on a 15 year old design. That ambi slide lock has been around for as, or nearly as, long as the P99. If there were an inherent design flaw, I can guarantee you that in the hundreds of thousands of guns Walther has put into worldwide use during that time, from civilians in the U.S. to various police and military forces around the world, it would've been found by now.

As far as the slide rails, mine appear to be the same as you're describing, with the right slightly higher than the left. It's really hard to tell by eyeball, though, and any difference there is so small as to be insignificant.

The PPQ is a combat handgun. It is, by design, a little loosely fitted. That helps the gun continue to function when dirty. Not just shooting dirty; dropped in the mud dirty. As long the gun's functional, minor differences like that are meaningless.



It's far more likely that the slide lock lever itself loosened up, rather than the frame warping after a few hundred rounds. We have seen a couple and I mean 2 or 3, defective slide lock levers, but they literally broke. As long as the gun is functioning correctly, stop worrying about it and shoot it.


Unless you're an engineer who specializes in firearm design or plastics, and you happen to have more experience or otherwise are smarter than Walther's engineers, who have been behind this design for over 15 years, put the OCD on hold and enjoy your new gun.
Click to expand...
I was typing as this was posted.

I agree completely, and my right-side slide release lever is also slightly higher than the left.
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In this picture, you can see the top (which is the left side) of the slide release lever has a gap between it and the body of the trigger assembly and slide rails. The lower (right) side slide release lever has no gap. This is not because the gun came this way. It is because there is a curvature to the entire polymer grip and rails assembly that occurred after firing the gun moderately. I was unable to take a clear picture, but there is a definite but very slight curvature to the polymer. As you can see, the gap is extremely small on the top between the slide release lever and the body, but it is there.

Also, as I said before, you can physically take the polymer grip section and bend it so that the gap is equal on both sides of the gun. To me this shows that the polymer simply may not be strong enough for its purpose. I doubt this could cause a malfunction, but I also don't believe that as someone said above that I need to be a mechanical engineer to understand that uneven pressure and heat can cause warping. It happened right here.

I was also unable to get a clear picture of the front of the gun.

http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/members/19110-albums135-picture816.jpg
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balance said:
I'm curious enough to want to see some pictures.

How long did it take for you to fire these 300 rounds?

These same ambidextrous slide release levers have been in use since at least 2004, on the P99.

Third picture from the left:

FAQ VIII-10

This is the first I've heard of a design issue with these levers. I would think that with the police and military contracts that the P99 has gotten, that this issue would have either popped up and been reported, or would have been fixed in the 7 years between when the design of these levers was released on the P99 (2004), and when the PPQ was released (2011).

I've gotten a 10mm Glock 20 and a 9mm FN FNX hot enough to get the dust cover (area above the accessory rail) to bend upwards and touch the slide. It only took a few mags rapid fire on these two pistols. I've shot my P99 and PPQ as fast as those two, and more than likely faster, and gotten my Walthers as hot as the Glock and FN, and more than likely hotter, and the dust covers on both my P99 and PPQ are as straight as they were when new.

I've never had a dust cover bend upwards in an H&K either, and I've shot my USPc and P30S pretty fast as well. Both Walther and H&K use fiberglass reinforced polymer frames, which makes them seem more rigid, to me at least, than the frames of other polymer pistols.

How long did it take you to fire off those 300 rounds in your PPQ?

Here is a 1000 round test done by James Yeager on a Glock 19:

Part 1
1000 Round Glock Torture Test Part One - YouTube

Part 2
1000 Round Glock Torture Test Part Two - YouTube

Notice how the "drop free" mags didn't want to drop free as the test went on, and how before the test was completed, the stock guide rod melted and came out of the front of the pistol. Is there a design flaw with the stock magazines and guide rod on Glock pistols, or was the design pushed beyond it's limits only when reality was pushed beyond it's limits on how many rounds would realistically have to be fired through a pistol at any point in time without letting it cool off first?

If you shoot any polymer framed pistol long enough, and get it hot enough, changes will take place. This doesn't necessarily mean there is a design flaw with the design, it just means that you have found the limit that the pistol can take before the changes occur.

I remember shooting about 100 rounds rapid fire out of my P99, using four factory 15rd mags and two factory 10rd mags, loading them up as fast as I could after I ran out of loaded mags, and shooting them at a target. This was after a range session where I had already shot a few hundred rounds out of the pistol in an indoor range. The pistol was very hot, but I noticed no changes on the frame of my P99. I've done the same with my PPQ, once, and I don't see any changes in it right now as I'm looking for some.
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I said in my initial post, I shot a total of 300 rounds, but I only own 3 15 round magazines. After firing the three magazines, I took the time to reload then fire again. Also, I was not performing repeated mag dumps or anything crazy. I was also intermittently firing rifles and other pistols during the process. I don't believe I was pushing this weapon very hard.
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I said in my initial post, I shot a total of 300 rounds, but I only own 3 15 round magazines. After firing the three magazines, I took the time to reload then fire again. Also, I was not performing repeated mag dumps or anything crazy. I was also intermittently firing rifles and other pistols during the process. I don't believe I was pushing this weapon very hard.
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In that case, I'd say that you shouldn't have been able to get the pistol hot enough to warp it, firing 300 rounds intermittently with only three mags. More than likely, the pistol was this way when you bought it. Are you saying that you actually looked before and after that range session, and noticed that the gap you are describing, wasn't there before?

I've shot my PPQ quicker than you are describing, and I've noticed no changes in my pistol. There are guys that have put these pistols through training courses with high rates of fire, and they haven't reported this issue either. If the pistol works as designed, I wouldn't worry about it just yet.
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rifleshooter474
liquidify said:
I said in my initial post, I shot a total of 300 rounds, but I only own 3 15 round magazines. After firing the three magazines, I took the time to reload then fire again. Also, I was not performing repeated mag dumps or anything crazy. I was also intermittently firing rifles and other pistols during the process. I don't believe I was pushing this weapon very hard.
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If you have the time and the Ammo. why not do the same 1000 15 Min. round test as was done with the Glock? This way everyone will see just how well the Walther holds up. Myself I would like to know if the Walther OEM recoil spring Assy. would also fail as it did in the Glock.
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balance said:
In that case, I'd say that you shouldn't have been able to get the pistol hot enough to warp it, firing 300 rounds intermittently with only three mags. More than likely, the pistol was this way when you bought it. Are you saying that you actually looked before and after that range session, and noticed that the gap you are describing, wasn't there before?
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That is exactly what I am saying. I took the gun apart and cleaned it and lubricated it according to the directions before that session so I was very familiar with the way it looked and felt. Plus I have been holding it in my hands nearly 24 7 for the last four or five days since I bought it. The noticable difference in what I feel is that the slide release lever sticks out slightly further on the left side.
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If you have the time and the Ammo. why not do the same 1000 15 Min. round test as was done with the Glock? This way everyone will see just how well the Walther holds up. Myself I would like to know if the Walther OEM recoil spring Assy. would also fail as it did in the Glock.
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I'm sure it would.

That is exactly what I am saying. I took the gun apart and cleaned it and lubricated it according to the directions before that session so I was very familiar with the way it looked and felt. Plus I have been holding it in my hands nearly 24 7 for the last four or five days since I bought it. The noticable difference in what I feel is that the slide release lever sticks out slightly further on the left side.
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I don't know what to tell you liquidify. That gap is so small that I wouldn't let it get to me. I seriously doubt that the frame warped from heat, since the pistol probably wasn't nearly hot enough. It could have been something as simple as parts just wearing into each other. I doubt it is anything to worry about, but maybe keep an eye on it and see if it causes any issues later on.
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Does the gun shoot fine? If so, then quit being so anal retentive or buy a $4K Wilson 1911.

As mentioned earlier, it's a COMBAT handgun and believe you me, the polymer is tested to the nth degree. I'll give you a million dollars for every German/Austrian handgun that has melted the frame under shooting conditions that you can provide me. The RSA uses a different polymer for those who watched the video above of James "Runaway" Yeager. ;)


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