[toeball]

I started reading the book The Farnam Method of Defensive Handgunning. So far it's quite informative and has some good suggestions and points which, as I read, I find myself comming up with drills. If you all are willing, I'd like to post some of the major points and my thoughts, for comments. Mabey everyone can learn something and I could have some better drills to set up at the range.

I'm not going to post every point, just ones that strike a chord of interest in my mind. Either way, I would highly recomend the book itself. It's like reading stuff that Sniper350 posts, but on all kinds of topics from tactics and mental preparedness to how to speed post shooting recovery, mentaly, legaly, and financially. I hope to never need this information, but it's the same way with the gun. You own it for defense but hope to never use it. Anyway, thoughts?

 

[Jake Starr]

Okay this sounds like a good idea...to start a discussion on differnt pistol tactics. I hope it will not have any problem falling under the heading of P99. But let's face it, this forum is the most active so it becomes a sort of a catch all. I was inspired by your idea so I ordered the book today. I will follow you in your readings....

 

[toeball]

Ok, well, let me do chapter 1 in a nutshell. Psychological and Physical effects of being in a gunfight to expect and how to cope. Ok, there's more covered but this is the major topic

- spontanious urination - it's beyond your control, don't worry about it.

- shivering/shaking - same thing, normal body response to extreme stress, you may also feel cold

- loss of color perception - most people who survive gunfights report seeing everything in black and white

- loss of coordination - most noticable in loss of fine movement ability. reqirement of fine movement can cause the defensive action to break down.

- imparement of decision making ability - mind defaults to most basic and primative responses. In training reduce options, variations, and decisions as much as possible

- mental track - memory loss. You may only remember 2 or 3 rounds but have probably used 3 times as many. reload when you want to, not when you have to.

- tunnel vission - move your head side to side to break up the effect. Keep scanning your environment for more possible threats

- auditory exclusion - same as tunnel vission but with sound

- muscle tightening - may compromise shooting stance, and could cause accidental dischare. Keep finger out of trigger guard untill you're ready to fire

- time/space distortion - survivors usually report time slowing down, also objects will appear closer than they actually are. This is one reason information provided by "eye-witnesses" can be inacurate and why you should refrain from making written or verbal statements about a shooting you were involved in before talking to your attorney.

---
Some of these things are easy enough to train for. Use the same gun to practice and to defend yourself, practice any stances you may need to use at the range untill you perform them using "muscle-memory". Don't know how you would train for the rest of those, but knowing to expect them could still help. Any ideas?

 

[Wagemage]

Toeball, sounds like a good chapter. Here is some tips on a few of those.

First I will address is the shaking. Try simulating it by SPRINTING a few hundred yards at an outdoor range and by doing some push ups before trying shoot a 5 inch group at 15 yards. In order to be able to compensate for the shaking you need to practice with the shaking. THe Sprinting part is important because you want a high heart rate to help simulate the situation and the push ups will help simulate the shaking. I suggest holding a half up push up until you collapse to get a good shake in your arms.

As far as teh loss of color, I would not worry about it, you can still make out the target, and most of those are black and white, really think about it. THats what we all usually shoot at anyways.

As for the loss of co ordination, other than the push ups it is fairly dangerous, but here are some ideas, none of which I have tried and are open to any criticism, try laying on your arm until its numb before you shoot, it will mess with you natural point and shoot kenestetics. Maybe try getting dizzy, or my personal favorite, is try shooting after a bit of pepper spray; its hard to remember to breath let alone see where your pointing in relation to a target. The only one of those I konw have been tried is the pepper spray by some police departments. They may be dangerous so I don't really reccommend them.

and for the last one of the night, as far as an imparment of decision making ability, I would have to go with mental reharsal. YES it really works. You can sit down and meditate on this, or just go through possible scenarios in your head, but if you practice the decisions you would have to make in situations before hand you will respond to your predetermined answers with out having to think about it later on. Gymnists and Divers use a variation of this for the cues their bodies give them about how to react. IE if you fill the flip going out of wack (a technical term) you open the tuck to slow the rotation to see whats going on and to prevent greater injury. A Defensive handgun situation for this would be something similar to naturally having your hand move to your fire arm and positioning the part of the body that carries it away from the threat to prevent them from preventing you to draw the weapon. IE if you carry on your right hip, mentally practice the decision of positioning your right hip away from the threat so you are able to draw.

Well thats all I have for this tonight, but same as always, practice practice practice. You can get in more than while you are just at the range. I can not emphasize that enough. But range time is fun too.
Patrick OUt:blues:

 

[sniper350]

Sounds like an interesting thread....... I hope it will be accepted in this forum. It is not like we have tons of posts to wade through.

This type of education is appropriate no matter what handgun
we use, but then I don't run this forum

JF.

 

[Jake Starr]

Some of the stuff sounds like what the old timers called "buck fever." Rather interesting reading....

Color in Black & White? So what does that say for night sights with all of the different colored inserts?

 

[Jake Starr]

My book just came in today's mail. It looks interesting. See how we can tie this in with our P99's so we can keep this tread going. One of the reasons I bought a Walther is because it is different appeals to a certain clientele. Be pretty nice to have a well informed cadre of P99 owners. Heck, we may even start a book of month club for discussion purposes...

I finished chapter one. I do like this statement: "A superior gunman is best defined as a person who can be depended upon to use his superior judgement (sic) to keep him out of situations that would require the use of his superior skills."   P.14

Also what others have stated here in other threads(Sniper) was confirmed. That lighter trigger pulls (4.4lbs) are frowned upon, especially for students because of muscle tightening which can lead to an AD. Hence a heavy trigger pull will hardly be noticed when engaged in actual defensive handgunning.

And I am still waiting for Sniper's book to hit the presses….
 

 

[jehzsa]

Regarding the time/space distortion here's something that helps. Try to position yourself with the wind on your back. As opposed to a position where the wind is on your face. Of course, this is not always possible and if winds are calm it is a non-issue.

Best explanation given to me is that the effect of the blast(shockwave) is diminished. And accentuated if the wind is on your face. Sort of the difference/comparison between swimming against or with the waves.

 

[toeball]

Ok, chapter 2

Basically talks about being able to bring your attention to full aleart and on target (as in "startle recovery"). Be able to have your gun in play within 5 seconds. Get into a strong position (cover) as quickly as posible. When called for don't hesitate to fire. Keep firing till the threat is no longer a threat. Scan for further threats.

Reload if you can remeber firing at all because of the time compression effect. Stay in your strong position or get further away. Don't leave strong position to approach, EVER.

After the shooting is over, check yourself for injuries starting from head down. You could be shot and not know it. Gather everyone and leave the house, call the police. Make sure to start with "There's been a shooting". Don't guess or speculate, just say "I don't know". DON'T BE HOME WHEN THE POLICE ARIVE. Call them on your cell phone and talk them over. Be unarmed and keep your hands visible. Greet police by saying "Officers, I'm the one who called". Followed with "A man broke into our house and tried to kill us". Finally, "Officers, I'll be happy to answer all your questions as soon as my lawer is here". When you shoot someone you are a suspect in the eyes of the police and they will try to interogate you as one.

---
There's more, I'll continue later this evening.

 

[Jake Starr]

Toeball, you're doing a great job. I will only add some filler stuff, okay?

When using cover, don't allow your weapon to protrude beyond the cover into an area over which you have no control.

Don't shoot too fast. "You can't miss fast enough to catch up!" –p.27

If threatened, MOVE. Movement reduces the attacker's hit-probability by, as much as, 75%.

Engage multiple targets alternately until they are all down.

Don't try to move and shoot at the same time since it reduces your accuracy. Only hits count and only shoot as fast as you hit the target. The only way to know this is to practice.

Use of cover vital. 95% of people who reach cover uninjured survive the encounter. Know the difference between cover and concealment.

Don't attempt to only wound. If you are not justified in ending the person's life, you are not justified in shooting at all.

Turn a close confrontation into a distance confrontation. Reaction time in a close encounter is crucial and the one who acts first usually wins.

Farnam always keeps the consequences of your actions right there in front of the reader by constantly referring to the legalities of the situation. The gunfight does not end after the firing ceases. The confrontation will continue when the police arrive and question you, as well as, when you end up in court. These are all things that need to be remembered. He also says don't loose objectivity. Your ultimate goal is your physical survival. It is not always necessary to destroy your adversaries. Sometimes it may be better to evade and escape. This is not the way of a coward but of the sage. Discretion is the better part of valor.
JK STRR

 

[Wagemage]

Just my law school 2 cents in it. I can't stress the importance of how the police were dealt with in the situation. NEVER talk to the police about a possible crime you were involved in without an attorney. Police are trained in how to get people convicted, not in obtaining justice. There is a bit of a difference there. On the legal bit though, the other posts about using the same weapons and ammunitions that the local police use is a good idea, but not the rule. And in the eyes of the law the only discharge of a firearm in a city limits (gun range exceptions) is with the intent to kill. So don't try to wound, it is not worth your life 99% of the time. There are a lot of situations where a gun should not be used, but leave that to a CCW class or post the questions and talk about it. Blah blah blah I have rambled enough, have a good day everyone.

 

[Jake Starr]

Next few chapters deal more with litigation than hand gun tactics...but they are very important for consideration. Makes me really stop and think about my defensive use of a firearm. I had REALLY better be in danger before I even consider drawing my weapon. The legalities are enormous. Makes me think if carrying a weapon may make a person mentally lazy, in that many would use their weapon as a first resort rather than trying to defuse the situation or think your way out of the situation. To think as if you were not carrying a weapon at all would.

 

[Wagemage]

Jake you make a good point, its better to go home with a black eye, then a justified death on your conscience.
Patrick

 

[toeball]

Which is why I also carry a knife....

"I can cut someone a little or cut them alot. It's really hard to shoot someone a little."

...plus the 1 time I actually was attacked and pulled my knife, it defused the situation rapidly with nobody hurt. a 6" fixed blade tanto is scary if it just appears in your victims hand when you're charging.

 

[Wagemage]

Toeball, The law looks at knives the same way it looks at a gun. Both are lethal force. You shared your story a little while back. I agree that flashing your knice will defuse a situation most of the time. However, most people on this forum are not as lethal with a knife as they are with a gun. And Knifes are not as threatening. People can outrun knives.
My two cents, if you don't practice knife fighting, don't carry a knife. And by practice I don't mean reading. If you don't practice with training knives against a person who is actively not trying to get stabbed while attacking you it will do you no good in the real world if you have to use it.
And Toeball, who makes the tanto you carry? I carry a folding benchmade.
Patrick

 

[toeball]

Mine's a Winchester Callout. It's your basic 4140 blade, but it's got a titanium nitride coating and I wrapped the aluminum handle with accesory cord so it fits my hand better. Came with a nylon/kydex sheath which I attach to my belt and slip into my pocket. I'd like a Benchmade, my best friend carries one, but for my use, this knife works well, and at 1/3 the price.

Actually, the law forbids one to cary guns on school properties, but knives are ok. It dosen't matter. Odds are that even if confronted by a knife welding assailant, they won't have any training either. Most attackers chose victims that look like easy pray. Pulling a weapon, knife, gun, stick, whatever, shows you to be a less than fully submissive victim and the attacker is likely to move onto an easier target.

I'm not as leathal with a knive as I am with a gun. The intent of me carrying any weapon isn't to kill, it's defense. Any advantage I can get I'll take though, and if someone is unarmed and enraged, a knife will serve well. If they can outrun the knife, that's awesome, it means I don't have to kill.

I'm not all that proficient with a knife, and I know that no matter what, in a knife fight both people are getting cut. I've practiced shanai with my friends enough to understand how one fights with a blade, and how, just like with guns, Hollywood is nowhere near being accurate.

I disagree with it being useless in the real world. Say you get grabbed from behind. This is already assult, and you're justified in pointing your gun. Problem is person is behind you and you can't reliably get into any safe firing stance. Pulling your knife and cutting your attacker will get them to release you (cutting a little). Now you can face your attacker, pull your gun and take control of the situation. Now if your attacker has a knife, your gun should come out.

If you do get into a knife fight, accept that you're getting cut. Odds are that you knife wielding attacker won't be trained in knife fighting either, but knowing what to expect alone gives you an advantage. First good cut is likely to get them to flee. Since you know you're getting cut try to sacrifiace forearms in defense of head, torso, and inner thighs. At the same time any poke you can get should also be followed by a twist. This magnifys the damage and increases the probability that the other will bleed out. Don't fight their knife, fight the person. As long as you can inflict a torso hit before they do, the fight has a very high probability of ending in your favor.

 

[Wagemage]

Toe, I'm not going to argue anything you said, just add a few words.
Most people who use a weapon, any weapon forget that they have two hands, feet, etc. You will see most knife fights revolve around the knife, and they will totally forget to either punch, kick, etc. If anyone is going to carry a knife I suggest practice incorporating it into unarmed fighting, and not relying on it as the focus of their training. This way you will overcome the focusing problem and will be better armed then your apponent. I can really lecture how this stuff applies in Western Martial arts, and Swordplay, but alas, that is not a topic for here.
Patrick

 

[Jake Starr]

Book is good overall but you have to wait until chapter 19 until you start getting into defensive handgunning. However if you need a very good overall book this one is a keeper.

 

[uncut]

field report of a guy that took a class tought by John Farnam

I just read this and thought you guys might like it

 

[arnie08515]

I carried a knife for nearly ten years straight while I lived in BigCITY. It was Gerber blade about 3.5 in. Carried it on my leg, on my back, underarm, in an attache case, on the hipside, in a breast pocket. Carried it to work & on all my dates.

I nearly had to use it once. It was Sunday morning about 3:30 AM and I just got off the train after a late date. Nobody was in the street. I starting walking and noticed a guy from across the street starting to cross and following me. I kept walking to ignore him. He started walking faster, so did I. It was clear he was following me. He started to speak to me to ask me something. I looked behind me to make sure there was no one from the rear approaching me.

He wouldn't stop, Just kept coming toward me. I then turned and told him not to come close to me. He ignored it. Just coming closer. I again told him to stop. He ignored that just kep walking toward me. Finally when we were about 7 or 8 feet apart, I reached around the back to pull the knife, telling him stop right there. I had my hand on it and he knew it. He got the message and stopped turned around and walked the other way. I would have done everything to fight for my life no matter what.

Its been 30 years since that happened. I can still recall the fear. I remember what I was thinking, "Why doesn't he stop, this can't be it, It's me or him, What's wrong with him and finally I'll have to use it" Thank God he stopped. The next day I went to work in the morning and there he was - on the corner with the hood of a or some car up.