Decocking the P99???

13911 Views 16 Replies 7 Participants Last post by Bruz, Jan 8, 2003

TheSwift1

Discussion Starter · Jan 6, 2003

Ok, maybe i'm just an idiot, but i thought that when u "decock" the P99 by pressing on the decocking lever on the slide, the pistol is no longer able to shoot unless u pull back the slide about 1cm...

well, at the range one day, i decided to try and check this out...i decocked the pistol...the cocking indicator of course goes inside the slide...then i pull the trigger... the same long trigger pull as the first pull on the first shot, but it still fired!

again, maybe i'm wrong here, but i thought that decocking the pistol would require that u rerack the slide in order for it to shoot...guess not??will someone please correct me!

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P88

· #2 · Jan 6, 2003

Your P99 is working just like it's supposed to. (Unless you have a P99QA) If you had a pistol with a hammer, lets say a Sig 229 and you pull the trigger. The trigger mechanism cocks the hammer back and then lets it fall, hitting the firing pin, which in turn hits the primer, causing the bullet to be fired. Then the slide comes back and cocks the hammer automatically. Thus now we are in single action mode. If you push down on the decock lever you put the gun back into double action mode.

The same thing happens in the P99, however the P99 is all striker fired. (no hammer) So when you see the cocked indicator pin, you are actually looking at the end of the striker, which tells you that the gun is in single action mode. When you hit the decock button you are simply putting the gun back into double action mode.'

Now on the P99QA the decocker would render the trigger inoperatable unless the striker was cocked via pulling the slide back, because it is a single action type of gun.

kbc

· #3 · Jan 6, 2003

Right,
Go here for the P99 FAQ

http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/WaltherP99FAQ/

"If I de-cock my P99, thus putting it into DA mode, how can I re-cock the striker to put it back into SA mode?
Pulling back the slide approximately 1cm is enough to re-cock the striker, putting the P99 back into single-action mode."

TheSwift1

Discussion Starter · #4 · Jan 7, 2003

2

thanx for the quick responses guys, but i knew all of that

i guess maybe i should reword what i was getting at...i had assumed that "decocking" the pistol would put it back into DA mode, thus requiring me to rack the slide about 1 cm in order for me to be able to fire it...BUT, I after decocking the pistol, I can still fire it by simply pulling the trigger!

so, if it's still possible to fire the P99 after decocking it simply by pulling the trigger (and NOT needing to rack the slide 1cm.) then what's the point in racking it after decocking it?

i hope that cleared up my question?

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P88

· #5 · Jan 7, 2003

No offense, but have you been around handguns very long?

The whole point in pulling the slide back 3/8" to cock the striker is to put the gun into single action mode. Thus a shorter and lighter pull of the trigger. (Just like if the gun had a hammer, like a revolver) The DA trigger pull on the P99 is around 10 lbs. The SA trigger pull is around 4 to 5 lbs.

So I guess I don't get why you are asking this question.

P88

· #6 · Jan 7, 2003

Ok I re-read your post and here is the answer I think you are looking for.

Double Action = The trigger doing two things, (thus DA) pulls the hammer (or striker in the P99) back and disengages the sear to let the hammer fall

Single Action = The trigger only releasing the sear to allow the hammer to fall (or striker in the P99)

Double Action Only = The trigger pulls the hammer back and disengages the sear. (or striker in the P990) The hammer can not be pulled back and left cocked.

Quick Action or Safe Action (P99QA or Glock) = The striker being pre-cocked at least half way and the trigger only having to pull the striker back a minimal amount before the sear is disengaged.

Does this help?

TheSwift1

Discussion Starter · #7 · Jan 7, 2003

2

lol...i understand the principles and mechanics behind firearm operation! and yes, this is my first pistol, but i've been around hammer-fired semi-autos and revolvers for quite some time...never fired a gun with a manual decockr...

ok, let's try this again...maybe if i put the question in the form of a scenario, u'll get what i'm during a terrible job of explaining...lol

ur at the range and ur P99 is loaded up...u rack the slide to chamber a round...the chamber is loaded...

now, u depress the decocking lever on the slide..the indicator (the firing pin itself) recesses back into the gun...it's now "decocked"...

now this was where i was getting at...after the above step, u pull the trigger and the gun still fires WITHOUT racking the slide again....

i understand the differences between SA and DA and the trigger pull lbs. between them, BUT i would think that "decocking" the pistol would, by some mechanical linkage or enginuity, disable the firing pin so that it CANNOT be fired unless the gun is reracked 1 cm, as is recommended...

cliff notes: decock P99...pull trigger...gun still goes bang without reracking slide...if this is possible why even the need for a decocker?

is there somethnig i'm missing?

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Bruz

· #8 · Jan 7, 2003

P88, you explaination is clear...I'll try a couple lines. Swift, there is no safe condition when a round is in the chamber. When you are shooting, do you feel the difference in trigger pull when the gun is decocked as compared to when you rack the slide? If the gun has been racked, you can pull back on the trigger and there is alot of "play" before you feel pressure and the gun discharges. When there is a round in the chamber and you have uncocked it, there is pressure on the trigger from the begining (cause you are "recocking" it) all the way to the end when the gun discharges. You can also dry fire it by racking the slide, thus making it where there is not much pull length or weight on the trigger (after the "play"), or by not racking the slide and by pulling the trigger, where there is a long pull length and more weight on the trigger, again because you are pulling the striker back and releasing it with one pull of the trigger. So, the reason for the decocker is to change it from the possible short, light pull to a long, harder pull, and so you are not walking around with a round in the chamber and the striker back (which if the gun were dropped may release the striker accidentally). Rots of wruck!

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BreakerMorant

· #9 · Jan 7, 2003

As I understand your question, you are asking why does the gun have a decocker that only returns the gun to DA.

As you know, the DA has a longer, heavier trigger pull. The value of this is to make sure that when you pull the trigger, it is an intentional act. -Huh? Let me explain- Some people carry the gun in SA, only. The trigger has a short travel and relatively light trigger pull. If you are drawing the weapon in a clutch situation (or against the clock) it is easy to white-knuckle it and yank the trigger before the muzzle is on target causing an AD (Accidental Discharge). -May all your AD's be down-range.

By decocking the pistol to DA after racking a round into the chamber, the trigger pull returns to the long travel, heavy "deliberate" trigger pull. This has the effect of reducing the chances of an AD caused by prematurely pulling the trigger. Basically, where seconds count, it gives the shooter a chance to focus on the trigger pull, guarding against the flinch, and ensuring an intentional trigger pull. Some people prefer to carry the gun in DA/SA, where the first shot is DA.

There is nothing wrong with carrying the firearm in SA only. The only drawback is that it doesn't take much to unintentionally set the weapon off, once your finger is within the trigger guard. How you carry the gun (SA or DA/SA) or whether you make use of the decocker in the future is a personal preference kind of thing.

-I read the comment regarding the possibility of a dropfire in SA. Going off the fact that the gun was designed in part by a guy who used to work for Glock and Steyr, I think the dropfire scenario in SA is unlikely as the Glock has a failry good record here and the Walther's striker design appears to bear a strong resemblance to what Glock uses.

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jmoln

· #10 · Jan 7, 2003

Swift

Here is my $0.02 regarding your question. Consider the P99 as no different than any standard revolver. The cylinder is loaded and the hammer down. Pulling the trigger cocks the hammer in the set position and then releases it. If you first pull the hammer back to a cocked position, the trigger then only has to release the sear to fire. Either way you are pulling the trigger on a loaded chamber and firing the weapon.

Another way of looking at it is to take the revolver example, use your thumb to cock the hammer, then decock it by pulling back on the hammer, lightly pressing the trigger, release the hammer lock, release the trigger load, and with your thumb lower the hammer. This puts the revolver back into DA mode. Decocking the P99 is the same action as lowering the hammer.

TheSwift1

Discussion Starter · #11 · Jan 7, 2003

thanx for the responses guys..

when comparing the P99 to a DA revolver, as the above example, when you "decock" the revolver, you put it back into DA mode, requiring you to cock the hammer back and then fire right?
well, in the P99, decocking merely keeps it in SA, as it's not necessary to rack the slide in order to fire...granted, the trigger pull WILL be looong and the force require to pull will be much greater than if u racked it, but it's still possible to fire it..

Bruz, you pretty much answered my question...u see, i was expecting some kind of mechanical linkage of some sort in the P99 to physically keep the firing pin from being fired when it's decocked, requiring that you rack the slide before doing so....the gun can be fired, but it's a lot difficult, which i guess in itself is a good safety...i mean what's the chances of u pulling that trigger that hard without having an intent on using it!

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P88

· #12 · Jan 7, 2003

TheSwift1,

Ok, read what Bruz, BreakerMorant, and jmoln have to say and hopefully they have explained it well enough for you to understand.

Another idea crossed my mind. You say you've been around other hammer fired semi-autos. Which ones? The reason why I ask is that all most all of them have a decocker in the form of a safety lever. (the 1911 models or single action type guns are a different situation entirely) Lets take the Beretta 92, Walther PPK, Walther P.38. Each of these guns have a safety lever on the side of the slide. When you push down on the safety lever it also acts like a decocker by dropping the hammer, thus putting the pistol back into DA mode. Like Bruz said the DA mode of the gun just places the trigger in a mode where you are required to use more force and pull length to make a gun go off. (this is sometimes a requirement of Police departments for insurance purposes)

Now as far as the Walther or Glock going off if dropped, it will not happen unless the trigger is pulled while being dropped. Both guns have a plate that blocks the striker unless the trigger is pulled thus pushing this plate out of the way. Yes you must use extra care around a Glock or P99 because they do not have any external safeties. This is why you hear about an accidental discharge going off in police locker rooms every now and then. Its because the idiot who was holstering the gun either had his finger on the trigger or had a blockage around his holster, like a shirt tail, that got caught in the trigger guard and pulled the trigger as they were holstering the gun.

Why don't Glocks or P99's have manual external safeties? Simply for speed and ease of use.

I hope this helps. It would be a lot easier for me to explain this to you in person, while showing you the different guns.

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P88

· #13 · Jan 7, 2003

[b said:
Quote[/b] (TheSwift1 @ Jan. 07 2003,9:26)]well, in the P99, decocking merely keeps it in SA, as it's not necessary to rack the slide in order to fire...

Wrong.

By decocking the P99 you put the gun back into DA mode. It is no longer in SA mode.

TheSwift1

Discussion Starter · #14 · Jan 7, 2003

[b said:
Quote[/b] (P88 @ Jan. 07 2003,9:38)]

[b said:

Quote[/b] (TheSwift1 @ Jan. 07 2003,9:26)]well, in the P99, decocking merely keeps it in SA, as it's not necessary to rack the slide in order to fire...

Click to expand...

Wrong.

By decocking the P99 you put the gun back into DA mode. It is no longer in SA mode.

well, yes, i know that it puts it in DA mode...what i meant in the above statement is since it's still possible to pull the trigger after decocking with no other action necessary, wouldn't that be considered SA?

also, in ur above examples, a manual safety physically keeps the gun from firing...the P99's decocker doesn't do that..u can still fire it...this was what i was getting at...

but i think i answered my own question now that i thiink about it a little more...it still serves it's purpose as a "decocker" becuase it decocks the firing pin..but it's NOT a manual safety in the sense that the gun can still be fired after decocking (even though the pull is much more difficult)...

i still love this gun!!

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P88

· #15 · Jan 7, 2003

great! I'm glad we figured this one out.

I'm glad you like your P99 and I hope you will like it for years to come. I sure have liked mine. They have served me well and have done well in IDPA competitions.

SVRider

· #16 · Jan 7, 2003

[b said:
Quote[/b] (TheSwift1 @ Jan. 07 2003,7:19)]

TheSwift1 said:

well, yes, i know that it puts it in DA mode...what i meant in the above statement is since it's still possible to pull the trigger after decocking with no other action necessary, wouldn't that be considered SA?

Click to expand...

Hey Swift, hope you're liking your new P99.

If you "decock" a handgun, any handgun, that takes it out of single action. What I think is happening here is a confusion between what single vs. double action is.

Double action is thus named because a trigger pull causes 2 sequential "actions." First, it pulls back the hammer or striker. When the trigger breaks the second action is performed and that is the releasing of the hammer or striker which causes the gun to go bang.

In single action, a trigger pull only causes one "action." That would be the releasing of the hammer or striker, causing the gun to go bang. This obviously would require that the hammer or striker be already cocked.

If you chamber a round, your P99 is in single action mode, waiting for a trigger pull to release the striker. By decocking the striker your P99 is put into double action mode. Had you done this to something like an HK USP you could always recock the gun (putting it back in to SA mode) by pulling the hammer back. Since the P99 does not have a hammer the only way to put it back into SA after decocking is by pulling the slide back just far enough that the striker is locked back into SA but not so much that the round is ejected. The P99 has no safety, if there is a round in the chamber and you pull the trigger, it will go bang.

Hope this help clears things up.

Bruz

· #17 · Jan 8, 2003

Hey Swift, glad we could help. As always I learned something also.

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