[animalwithin]

So I'm on the hunt for a German or French PPK/S and since I live in the ever so gun-friendly state of California, the only way I can obtain one is through PPT or curio/relic. I haven't been successful with locating a PPT but I've found a few listings with 1970 or pre-1970 Walthers/Manurhins.

From my understanding, there is no definite way of knowing the exact manufactured year of the older PPK/S so for these listings that would meet the curio/relic requirement, is there any way to know for sure if they are in fact at least 50 years old and can legally be sent to me here in California?

I'm not implying that the people listing these firearms are liars, and they're all established firearms sellers on the respective sites, but I just want to make sure I'm doing everything legally. I'd hate to deal with any mess that could come up if things weren't accurate.

 

[BornFighting88]

Walther has a habit of encoding the manufacture date in the alphanumeric code on the firearm. I was just reading through the manual of C&R holders again (I myself have a C&R license), and it can either be 50 years old, OR it can be eligible if it derives its value from a point in history, belonging to an iconic figure in history, or some other jumbled federal garble.

Anyways, short story long, if you ask for the serial number and the alphanumeric code, that should give you a really good indication of when it was made. Old German or French PPk’s are going to be a really high chance to meet at least one of the criteria for C&R.

As for the translation of the codes, that can be found somewhere either on this forum, or if you call Watlher. They should be able to provide that information to you.

Now that the magazine ban has been lifted by the courts, this should open up Kommie-fornia to getting rid of other junk and illegal laws. But until that time, FFL-03 is the way to go.

I would call the seller and kindly ask for that information. See what Walther can tell you.

 

[animalwithin]

@BornFighting88 Thank you for the info! Good catch on the historical value bit. I'd like to think James Bond is an iconic figure 😎

I do recall reading about the alphanumeric coding on the firearm and have seen something like that on some of them stamped alongside or above the proofmark but I can't make it out on this one. On the ejection port I see the eagle logo, what appears to be a number or alphanumeric code, and then the squiggly antlers or vines logo. I'll have to get a better shot of that from the seller. I do have the serial number.

Lets hope that more laws are relaxed here. Tragic what this state has done to the 2nd Amendment.

 

[BornFighting88]

Of course, and I am sure I missed something. Someone else on here might correct me or add to what I mentioned.

The antlers are common on Walther firearms (other German makers have been known to mark in this way, too). Both of my Walthers have the antler roll mark.

Do you have the two letter code?? (Example AB or GH). That will tell you manufacture date, and the serial number, when plugged into the range of certain runs, it’ll tell you more surely the span of years inside of which the particular one you are interested in was manufactured.

I wish you the best and hope you have good luck in acquiring a mighty nice treasure. Just make DOUBLE darn sure you log it in your bound book. Pictures posted will be a nice touch, too.

 

[animalwithin]

@BornFighting88 I see somehthing in between the eagle and the antlers. I'm assuming it's two numbers or the letter/number combo you speak of but I can't make it out. I'll need to have the seller send me a clearer picture of that.

Serial number is 220040S and the Manurhin I found as a back up is 257937S. The Manurhin has a crown stamp on the injection port followed by what appears to be the name of a French city (St. Etienne) maybe? Both sellers are indicating they are at least 50 years old.

Do I need to have a curior/relic license to get one? I was going to have it transferred to my FFL but I'm thinking of getting the license regardless seeing as I have a fondness for the vintage.

 

[Balogh]

The antlers are common on Walther firearms (other German makers have been known to mark in this way, too).

The antler symbol simply stands for the Ulm proofhouse. Walther guns proofed in Cologne are stamped with a symbol of three crowns.

Do you have the two letter code?? (Example AB or GH). That will tell you manufacture date, and the serial number, when plugged into the range of certain runs, it’ll tell you more surely the span of years inside of which the particular one you are interested in was manufactured.

The two-digit letter code GH is rather a bad example because until today we don't find this date code on any Walther PP series gun. The two-digit letter code wasn't introduced until 1977. From 1961 to 1977 Walther used a date code of two-digit numbers, for example 68. If we take it very seriously, it is not the year itself, but the last two digits of the year, thus 1968. It's good to know that the date code doesn't reflect the year of manufacture date but the year of the proof. In most cases they're identical but we want to be on the safe side.

 

[Balogh]

I'd like to think James Bond is an iconic figure 😎

Yes, he is for sure. But he doesn't has to do anything with a PPK/S. By the time the James Bond books were written, the PPK/S(pecial) didn't exist. James Bond got the PPK. There are some inconsistencies in the movies, where Walther PP and Walther P5 are used but called Walther PPK. In "Skyfall" James Bond uses a PPK/S(ignature) which is called PPKS unfortunately but it isn't a PPK/S as we know it. It's a PPK too.

If you want to associate an iconic figure with the Walther PPK/S, Elvis Presley, for example, would be a possibility.

 

[Balogh]

Serial number is 220040S and the Manurhin I found as a back up is 257937S. [...] Both sellers are indicating they are at least 50 years old.

A PPK/S with a S/N of 220040S is without a doubt a .380ACP model that was manufactured not before 1977. The serial number 257937S could be a model chambered in either .32ACP (made in or after 1971) or .380ACP (made in or after 1982). It seems that both sellers suffer from a mathematical deficiency or they just don't know any better.

 

[druryj]

Takin' Care of Business...

 

[animalwithin]

@Balogh Thank you for the wealth of information! I was only being sarcastic about James Bond 😂

I have seen the date code on a few of these next to the antlers. Another PPK/S that I'm watching has a 69 next to the proofstamp/antlers but the bidders have bid the price up to nearly $2,000. At least I know that it's made in 69.

You have confirmed by suspicion about the other two sellers, bummer Looks like my hunt continues. I found one a few weeks ago here in California but very stupidly I let it slip through my fingers, would have been an easy PPT.

 

[BornFighting88]

Balogh, thank you for proper information. I knew there might have been something I missed.

As a "hindsight is 20/20" kind of thing, YES get the C&R license!!! It doesn't hurt to have it and maintain it. I think mine was $35/3 years, and I just got mine renewed in 2019. The turn around time for mine was better than getting my passport renewed, I kid you not. I think I submitted my application to Langley in middle of January, and I think by the end of the first week of February I had license in hand.

If you don't end up using it for the term, no harm/no foul. I think the first issue of mine, I didn't end up using it as all the things I was eyeing up were too expensive for my blood or the sales got yanked out from under me. (Oh GunBroker..... ahahaha).

Any classical firearms that are worth their salt are going to fetch a heck of a price. Try looking for a Luger post-Obama years... GoodNESS. Before that idiot ruined our reputation, P08's MAYBE topped out around $1000, and rare examples would get a few times that much. Now... gosh!!!

I digress... I wish you the best on your search. Use what Balogh said to help you weed through some of the smoke and mirrors.

 

[animalwithin]

@BornFighting88 You've inspired me to get a C&R license, I'll get to work on that as I search for my PPK/S.

You've also peaked me curiosity on Lugers and I just lost a good hour scouring listings. A rabbit hole that needs exploring!

 

[BornFighting88]

I commend you on your great decision.

 

[tlp]

How do you prove to FFL 1 dealer that you have to ship it to that is over 50 years old? Show a code and translation to the year. Does that work and has anyone done it?

 

[halfmoonclip]

I don't want to whizz on anyone's Wheaties, but there may be an exclusion on C&Rs that have remained in production, even if a particular example is over 50 years of age.
As regards connection to an historical personage, it has to be connected to a particular person; just the fact that Hitler had a PPK doesn't cut it.

Humbly suggest some further research.
The C&R is still worth having, even tho' Brownells no longer gives you a commercial discount.
Moon

 

[BornFighting88]

Moon,

I think you are close on your discovery, but I do believe it is by particular piece at hand in regards to its age or value, not whether or not it is still in current production. That said, reproductions and replicas of such old designs do NOT count as C and R arms.

This was true last I checked.... but Gooberment agencies change their garbage heap of rules faster than I can keep track anymore.

 

[tlp]

If I want to buy a Walther ppk made in 1966. It's not on the C&R list but it's over 50 years old. In California if it's shipped from out of state it has to go to a FFL 1. How do I prove to the FFL 1 that it's a C&R? Which is the only way it can be brought into California since it's not on the handgun roster list.

 

[Andyd_is_PzGren]

Firearms that are over 50 years old automatically attain C&R status but there are exceptions, like modifications.
Curios & Relics | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (atf.gov)

Then there is the old list of qualifying guns, collectors editions, etc.
Curio and Relic List 2018 (atf.gov)

All guns that are sent to California need an approval number from the California DOJ, which excludes non-licensees sellers and will reduce FFL holders to those few that register with the DOJ and are willing to do the extra work. For the C&R licensed individual there are some extra steps, too.

BOF 4100A - CURIO OR RELIC FIREARM REPORT (ca.gov)

 

[Redcat94]

In California if it's shipped from out of state it has to go to a FFL 1. How do I prove to the FFL 1 that it's a C&R?

I'm in Wisconsin and my LGS has my C&R on file. If they get in something that I want that's eligible I make a photocopy of a page out of one of my reference books proving the guns age and give it to them. They staple it to the 4473 and that's it.