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Crunching the 380 – a ballistics analysis (Part I)

3K views 24 replies 10 participants last post by  halfmoonclip 
#1 · (Edited)
After too long of a delay, I've finally started grinding out the words behind the study I've done of .380 ACP rounds, and posted part one.

Yes, this is a bit of a blog pimping, but as I have no ads or monetization, one can hardly call it self-serving … it's just that there's too many words to make a good forum post.

A short excerpt:
me said:
Our ideal round is not necessarily the same as the officer’s – but there are many similarities. If we’re forced to shoot in self-defense (presuming our threat doesn’t quit, run away, or hide) we very much need our action to stop the threat – maybe more so, as we may not have an armed partner and government behind us. Accordingly, on ammunition sites and YouTube vloggers alike the barrier tests are usually not replicated, and you’ll find tests largely involving bare gel or denim/cloth/fleece “heavy clothing” (and the occasional bag of oranges). This set of articles uses the 12″-18″ FBI standard, not because the .380 ACP is a duty round, but because some objective standard is better than none. When making your own choice, keep in mind this is about personal defense, not duty.

...this study doesn’t “trust” or “distrust” Shooting the Bull 410, Lucky Gunner, or any other author. It pulls together 330+ rounds from 12 different authors, 12 different firearms, and 29 different types of ammunition, all in .380 ACP.
Full article at http://www.wereratgames.com along with a prior bit I'd posted, which has nothing at all to do with arms but is a data science item about simulation racing.

Anyway enjoy, and I'm looking forward to cranking the rest of it out in intervals of less than a week each so this wordy intro doesn't get stale.
 
#2 ·
Having heavily researched 9mm and 380 ACP ballistics through barriers I clicked on your link. I clicked on it six times. Th last time I waited for to minutes. No commotion. I will try again later.
 
#5 ·
The new link works (slow). I began reading and came to an important error in the beginning.

You wrote: “The officer has a duty to protect the public,……”

That is not tru since June of 2005 when “The Supreme Court ruled on Monday that the police did not have a constitutional duty to protect a person from harm.”
(US Supreme Court June 20015)

Source of the above quotation

Now I will go back to reading your writing.
 
#6 ·
The ONLY time “The officer has a duty to protect the public,……” applies, is when LEO has a member of "the public" in custody.


If a citizen is NOT informed they're under arrest and handcuffed, the CITIZEN is where the buck stops in regard to their/loved ones safety.
 
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#7 ·
Why bother? Physics will enlighten ya. Same diameter bullet. But the 9x19 is heavier and goes faster. Simple physics tells us it will deliver more energy and penetrate deeper and do more damage to bones and muscles and organs.

I can see no reason to carry a .380 when the 9mm is available, generally at a cheaper price and with better bullet selections, and generally in better guns (blowbacks vs. browning rotating/locking breach).

So, generally same size guns but 9x19 is cheaper, better gun designs, and more effective...
 
#9 ·
I can see no reason to carry a .380 when the 9mm is available, generally at a cheaper price and with better bullet selections, and generally in better guns (blowbacks vs. browning rotating/locking breach).

So, generally same size guns but 9x19 is cheaper, better gun designs, and more effective...
I have Five 380acp pistols (Okay, I will toss the Makarov in the pile and say six). The Makarov (actually 9x18, but it is really close to 9x17) if the only blowback pistol of the lot.

This idea that 380 pistols are all blowback is way behind the current market.
 
#13 ·
I enjoyed your blog post and look forward to the other parts. If you haven't read it, Greg Ellifritz did a nice comparison on handgun calibers, https://americanhandgunner.com/featured/defensive-carry/

I carry 380 because that's what I want to carry and I have no worries with it.
Granted its cheaper to shoot my 9mm, but then again if I was looking to save money I don't think I would choose shooting as a hobby lol. Bottom line, get a firearm that runs, shoot it until its second nature and train often. Shot placement trumps caliber imho.
Then again the caliber wars have been going on since we had more than one caliber and I don't see them stopping anytime soon lol
 
#14 ·
Progressed from a .25 thru' .22 derringers to the Kel-tec .32 for an 'all the time'. Then the LCP/P3AT came along, giving semi-serious caliber to a really small, not especially pleasant pistol.
Then came the G42, only a little bigger, and infinitely easier to shoot, a lot.

Now the P365 ups the ante again, scarcely bigger, lots of shots, easy to rack and shoot, and a service caliber.

Would I return to a .380? Were a small, but easier to shoot,durable version to appear, certainly. We mere mortals need a compact defense gun for all the time, not a loitering WartHog on the other end of a radio.
BTW, referencing straight blowback 9mms, there have been some, and currently the HiPoint. That thing is an anvil with a grip, and shows why blowback 9mms are a questionable idea.
Moon
 
#15 ·
Interesting commentary!

I will admit I didn’t expect caliber wars here on the PP form, but OK.

At least one of the advantages of 9x19 is that you don’t need this study ... just about any JHP round will do (I still like HST in 9 personally).

I like .380 because, as far as I can tell, it’s inside the curve of effective rounds, by which I mean threats are stopped in about the same number of shots as duty calibers. Within that, respect for life and maybe legal restraint requires that I use the least force necessary.

(Words before fists, fists before sticks, sticks before blades, blades before firearms, but survival first.)

Plus for CCW in some circumstances small may be required, although I’d say that line is pretty blurry with the 365 and Hellcat and such.

I really am not writing this to ask “why 380.” I’m writing it for people who have chosen 380 and want the best out of it.
 
#18 ·
Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, .380s and .38 snubs were the minimum defense rounds; the .380s were usually PPKs.

That parallel isn't totally in the past, and the .380 remains the minimum defensive caliber. It remains a viable choice, especially in really small pistols, or mild kickers like the Smith EZ. It's growing popularity will stimulate better ammo. It would be helpful if SAAMI established a +P standard. A guy (whom I respect) over at Glock Talk is achieving 9mm velocities out of a Glock 42.

For all that, feel better armed with a P365.
Moon
 
#20 ·
If you choose the right ammunition 380 is an effective self defense round even out of a 3 inch barrel. I researched this when I switched from 9mm to 380 while doing hand therapy because of my arthritis. I am back on 9mm now, as I prefer to have the extra power. That is not to say that 380 does not have enough power. The link below is a video of a very informative 380 ammo testing project using FBI organic gel bare and with denim to compare penetration, expansion, and wound channel. The video was made after Precision One JHP was declared the winner. It lost its place to Lehigh Extreme Penetrator. I recommend that anyone shooting 380 out of a short barrel should watch the video. I watched the entire series of tests and it was informative because of the ballistic comparisons. Here is the link.

https://youtu.be/LczfeWK9lHw
 
#22 ·
Did I mention HiPoints are like an anvil with a grip? :eek:
Blowback carbines are a somewhat different matter; there is more room for the (still heavy) bolt to recoil, and springs to control it.
But locked breech pistols remain a better answer, even if there is more expense in their manufacture.
The package is part of the question. The .380 cartridge in a Glock 42 is not only less fussy to feed, due to lower slide velocity, but much more pleasant to shoot than the straight blowback Walther. The two are virtually identical in size, but the Glock is lighter.
Moon
 
#23 ·
Rats, forgot to alert the group that part II is up:

https://wereratgames.azurewebsites.net/

(Same as before, just reposting the link. It’s still the free tier of Azure and takes a moment to spin itself up if nobody’s visited in a bit.)

I’d intended to focus on visualizations around firearm choice and barrel length and ended up learning something about the ammunition itself. Part III with more pretty graphs is nearly done too, and that one will get into barrels.
 
#24 · (Edited)
1942bull,
Thanks. STB’s tests comprise about a third of my dataset and in fact he was a primary driver of the project.
His tests are well done but vary considerably from others’, and yet are cited (as by you) as if nobody else had ever put a .380 into gel.
In asking questions like “How did both Lucky Gunner and Ammo to Go get 12” out of a Critical Defense, but STB only gets that sad schoolteacher look of disappointment” I realized no one source or firearm test is definitive to show what a round does.
 
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