Walther Forums banner

1 - 20 of 87 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
24 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I apologize for the long post up front but I wanted to detail the following information as unambiguously as possible in trying to get to the bottom of this problem with the CCP.

My girlfriend of 21 years bought a CCP for three main reasons. As her CCW, the slide is easy to rack and she absolutely loves the way it fits her hand perfectly. She also likes the idea that it has a safety on it.

But, she has had FTF and FTE problems since day one. I have a Q5 which has never had either of these issues, plus I have personally fired close to 100 rounds with the CCP and have the same problems so it is definitely not a limp wristing situation causing these issues.

We are going to the range tomorrow and will try running some Winchester 147 T&D rounds as suggested by another user on this forum that claimed the 147’s totally solved his problem with the same issues.

I worry that if she ever ends up in a situation where she has to use it to defend herself she could run into the same problem which could end up being deadly even thought she knows how to clear it if you have the time.

The only thing I have done to the gun is to polish the feed ramp to a high gloss finish in the hopes that it might help. We will know tomorrow at the range.

All this said, I spent several hours going over every aspect of the CCP and its design. Although I have no problem with the basic design concept of the fixed barrel aspect I have discovered what I think ‘could’ be a design problem with the magazines.

Here is what I found and I am only speculating here but after much hand testing and carefully viewing every aspect I could see these are my results with eight rounds in the magazine and the slide locked in the reward position and the magazine inserted.

1. The top round in the magazine, with the other rounds pushing it up against the curved top of the magazine sides is aimed upward at approximately ten degrees in relation to the rest of the rounds beneath it and appears to be ready to go into the breach. All is well at this point.

2. Now, holding onto the slide and pulling it back to release the slide lock and slowly letting it come forward just enough to begin to touch the top round the first thing you notice is that as it catches the very top of the back of the round it immediately tips the round downward against the next round which now puts the top round aiming approximately ten degrees downward effectively aiming the round at the very base of the feed ramp.

[I have tested the same above action with my Q5 magazines. The PPQ mags have all rounds flush against each other so the above action can not happen and all rounds come off the magazine absolutely straight and slide beautifully right into the breach.]

3. Still holding onto the slide as the front of the round touches the very base of the feed ramp I can now actually let go of the slide and the round will be stuck there jammed against the very bottom of the feed ramp. At that point the action is locked in that position.

I can tap the back of the slide and the round will jump into the breach and will do the same thing if I release the slide fully after pulling it back to release the slide lock as expected but it still feels like the round hits way to low on the feed ramp

I have photos of all of the above conditions.

I would ask that any CCP owner reading this do the above test and see if you don’t get the same results and report back with your results.

Also take a look at a loaded CCP magazine and notice how the rounds beneath the top round are aimed in a downward direction in relation to the top round. You will also notice that there is a gap of about 2~3 millimeters between the front end of the casing of the top round and the second round. Holding the magazine in one hand press down on the front of the top round and you will see that it rotates downward against the second round.

This is what happens the moment that the slide contacts the top of the top round to move it forward to chamber it. It rotates the front of it downward instead of forward causing situation I described above when it will actually lock the slide open with the round holding it so if released gently.

Also, if you look at the front of the magazine you will notice the cutout semi-round notch at the top. When the top round is pushed forward by the slide the tip of the bullet actually comes in contact with that curved notch before it touches the feed ramp and the front edge of the cashing can actually catch behind the notch in the magazine causing a hangup of the round against the magazine.

Possibly conclusion:

I surmise that this could be a problem with the magazine follower holding all rounds below the top round at the wrong downward angle causing/allowing the top round to tip downward into the gap between the top round and the round below it when the slide begins to move it forward.

Looking forward to hearing from any other CCP owner who has tried the above and found the same situation occurring.

If everyone finds the same situation occurring then Walther needs to know and possibly come up with a solution to it.. Could this be the source of the problems of FTF and FTE that the CCP seems to have experienced since day one.

Max Taylor

P.S. I have double checked all of the above actions against my Q5 which is probably the same as all other PPQ’s and their magazines and none of the above situations exist. All rounds on the Q5 slide straight out of the magazine and directly into the chamber. Could be the reasons that FTF situations rarely if ever occur with a PPQ.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,372 Posts
Ask a range officer to test fire it as well using the heavier round. If you have another trusted brand of ammo try that as well. If the failures repeat.....send it to Ft Smith.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,914 Posts
Try the following: Take the magazine apart and thoroughly clean it. Make absolutely sure the magazine spring is correctly oriented; check the factory exploded view if necessary. Next, try some 115 grain FMJ Winchester, Remington or Federal ammo.

If that doesn't help, get rid of it. Buy her a revolver.

M
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
617 Posts
...
Also take a look at a loaded CCP magazine and notice how the rounds beneath the top round are aimed in a downward direction in relation to the top round. You will also notice that there is a gap of about 2~3 millimeters between the front end of the casing of the top round and the second round...
Instead of comparing the CCP single stack mag to a PPQ double stack mag, here is a picture of a couple other fully loaded 8 round 9mm single stack mags (Springfield XDE and Sig P225-A1). The gap between the top round and the next round seems pretty typical.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,567 Posts
I think most magazines do exactly what MaxClass is observing with regard to shoving the nose down. Loaded rounds sit nose up. As the bottom of the breech rail shoves a round forward in a magazine the top, rear edge of the rim is the first part to contact the rail. Drag against the magazine lips and follower or lower rounds causes the nose to drop by design as the rear of the cartridge whether .22 or center fire must slide up the face of the breech, under the extractor.....as the nose of the round is being fed up the feed ramp and into the chamber. A round won't feed into the chamber if it is slanting and the nose should not hit under the bottom edge of the ramp. This is not to say that a round might not get hung up and stop the slide when it contacts the feed ramp just that the nose should be on the ramp, not under it or half on it. Remember the CCP has a weaker recoil spring than other 9mm pistols due to the gas piston. And while checking magazine/round feed in slow motion by hand might be of some benefit it is not how the magazine works when the pistol is fired, parts are moving very fast, the stack of rounds is bouncing and moving up under recoil....etc.

I would do as Mike suggested.....clean the mags and try again. If this is happening with several magazines I would send it back to Ft. Smith. Perhaps it is a magazine issue, perhaps a recoil spring issue...perhaps both.....then I would take note of the history of the pistol and consider if it was one I would want my girlfriend to carry. 1917
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
I've not had any experience with this particular pistol, but if it's new perhaps some break-in will solve the issue. If it's used, springs are cheap - I'd consider replacing both mag and recoil springs. I'm guessing you already know this, but lubrication is one of the primary reasons pistols malfunction. Just my 2¢.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
24 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Yes, girlfriend of 21 years. Works for us.

Meanwhile as MGMike suggests the magazines have been taken apart cleaned and reassembled apparently making no difference whatsoever. We have even numbered (1 & 2) the magazines to see if the FTF’s happen more in one than the other. No noticeable difference at all.

pj_49 posted two different single stack magazines photos showing the gap between the top and second round. This is indeed that same as that with the CCP mags. This gap is the cause of the top round being shoved nose down as it is moved forward by the slide.

1917-1911M mentioned that most magazines push the top round nose down and I can’t dispute that. Also that the nose of the round hits the bottom of the feed ramp. Can’t dispute that either and that it might work slightly differently under actual firing conditions.

But, with the CCP the round actually hits on part of the flat just below the feed ramp. If it always hits some part of the ramp that would be different especially with a hollow point SD round. As mentioned you can slowly let the slide come forward by hand the the round will hang up against the very bottom of the feed ramp nine out of ten times.

As for it being anything close to natural to inject a round intentionally aimed nose down is off the charts of logic as I see it. Not that comparing my Q5 against the CCP but the Q5 (and all PPQ’s) injects the rounds straight ahead without the slightest nose down attitude and they operated flawlessly as I have never had a FTF with the Q5 (fingers crossed) so something in that design definitely works.

I had also mentioned that the round, once tipped nose down actually scraps against the round notch of the magazine with the shell casing actually snagging on it. Something not right about that part of the design.

Maybe that notch needs to be taken down some so that the injected round never touches it.

To SkippySanchez: As for break-in the CCP has probably had close to 800 rounds thru it. It is cared for and throughly cleaned after each outing using CLP and lubricated according to Walther’s recommendations. A new return spring might be in the offing if nothing else seems to help. The compression cylinder is cleaned but not lubricated as per Walther's instructions.

This one was part of the recall and was sent in and returned so updated with whatever they did to it.

We both love the overall look and feel of the CCP and it fits her hands perfectly and conceals easily. I just don’t want her to ever be caught in a situation, like at work, where she might have to defend herself only to find that she is only able to get the one round in the chamber off and have it jam.

There has to be something that can be done to make this gun the “Concealed Carry Pistol” it was designed to be. I seriously doubt that the magazine spring is the problem. Many CCP users claim theirs works just great for them so why the difference with this one.

Didn’t make it to the range today as it just a rainy dismal day in Vegas.

Thanks guys for all the great input and ideas. Somehow the answer to the dependability of the CCP will be found and we can all spend less time trying to solve problems that shouldn’t exist.

Lastly will try the 147 grain rounds as one user found that completely solved their problem with the CCP. I imagine a 147 might just make sure the slide makes it’s way all the way back. It is not a limp writing problem as it happens when I fire it and I’m 6 foot and 195 pounds and can hold my own.

Max

P.S. I would hate to have her end up with a Glock 43. I’m going to see what she thinks of the “Creed” to see if that might work for her. It seems to be getting good reviews. She also has no problems like those of the CCP with the Glock 19 or the Q5.
~~~
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,914 Posts
... Remember the CCP has a weaker recoil spring than other 9mm pistols due to the gas piston. And while checking magazine/round feed in slow motion by hand might be of some benefit it is not how the magazine works when the pistol is fired, parts are moving very fast, the stack of rounds is bouncing and moving up under recoil....etc.

I would.....clean the mags and try again. If this is happening with several magazines I would send it back to Ft. Smith. Perhaps it is a magazine issue, perhaps a recoil spring issue...perhaps both.....then I would take note of the history of the pistol and consider if it was one I would want my girlfriend to carry. 1917
The problem here is probably NOT going to be cured by replacing BOTH recoil and magazine springs. You'll be working at cross-purposes, A stronger recoil spring only exacerbates the problem by shortening the recoil stroke and accelerating the return to battery, which tends to cause the slide to hit the top cartridge rim higher (which in turn tilts it downward more) because the magazine spring can't raise the cartridge column far enough fast enough to compensate for it. Replacing the mag spring simply puts you back to where you were before you replaced the recoil spring: a day late and a dollar short. I don't know of any "graduated" mag springs, so the only options are to go with a lighter recoil spring or switch to more powerful ammunition to shift the balance.

Sending it back to Ft. Smith is a waste of time and effort even if they pay the shipping, except maybe as a selling point when you finally decide to get jettison that POS, if you leave it unfired after they tell you there's nothing wrong with it. Your conscience will be clear.

Don't be concerned about their conscience. It doesn't bother them at all.

M
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,567 Posts
Well, this is the conundrum of this pistol. Some work, others don't and the details of this pistol have been discussed in detail many times. Yes it fits the hand nicely, Walther gets most of that right on their pistols. But this particular pistol has had a hand full of problems from day one and we have not been able solve them plenty of times. Ft Smith has not been able to solve some of them either. Perhaps you could put up a photo of how the nose of a round lands on your feed ramp so others can compare theirs. Perhaps we could get a consensus of what the feed lips on the mag should be width wise on properly functioning mags. I do find your comment regarding the case catching on the mag to be interesting. Not sure I have any mags of any kind where that occurs.

What do other owners of these pistols say with regard to where the nose of a round hits on the ramp? I don't have one of these, don't believe Mike does either.....:D......but pistol in hand and we would have some better answers....perhaps. Good luck with it. 1917

http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/ccp/41849-ccp-mag-feed-issues-2.html

Similar thread from three years ago. Not sure it was ever resolved.....nose diving rounds. I don't believe I've witnessed rounds taking a nose dive....the rail shoving a round forward and dropping the nose yes, but it seems the follower or stack of rounds keeps the nose from taking a big dive..... Is the follower moving up and down smoothy and not binding. I bought a new mag once that had the spring installed backwards. It almost worked 100% but not quite. Ft Smith should be all over this if it is a recurring problem.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
617 Posts
The post-recall CCP that I had last year came with magazines marked -E- on the side. Here is a picture of the magazine internals.

The bottom plate had a fin and the spring might have been different than my earlier mags, but don't know for sure.

You could compare with your magazine internals and if different maybe Walther CS would exchange one of your magazines with one of these for you to try?

Best wishes on whatever you decide to do.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,567 Posts
Good one 49....too bad we lost all the Pbucket pics. It would be helpful for discussions like this if we had more pictures and measurements posted here. Sidewise view of mag with measurements listed. OAL, front edge to bottom of retention tabs. Sidewise view of ammo loaded to show how it sits in several problem free mags so those with problems would have something to go by. This is the net so you can do a lot of talking but you can't get the gun or mags in hand......and then if there are no pictures unless you are very, very familiar with solving the issues of a particular firearm we are just shooting in the dark with what the issue might be.

Pics of how a properly functioning mag sits in the firearm. The photographer will have to determine the best angle for showing this. Then perhaps some photos of what position the top round assumes as the breech rail begins to shove the round forward...say 1/4". Be specific and accurate. Next some top views with measurements of critical areas. Widths, lengths, etc. It would be good to have this information in a "CCP Magazines" thread so it isn't lost in the ozone. Perhaps some of these mags aren't sitting high enough in the frame? Gotta be high enough so the rail hits the rear of the top round....low enough so the magazine isn't hit by the rail.

Guy at one of the Ruger sections at RFC was having issues after installing expensive aftermarket trigger parts in his MK series. Wouldn't feed. Turned out Ruger stock parts almost imperceptibly press the mag forward and in doing so the pistol feeds 100%. I'm not even sure what the feed ramp on a CCP looks like. If you can tap the rear of the slide and cause the slide to close chambering the round then it isn't being caught on the edge of the ramp. I had a 22/45 and the rounds jammed into the bottom of the ramp....hitting the bolt just caused the bottom of the ramp to dig deeper into the nose. Ruger couldn't fix it, I couldn't either. Got rid of it. Turned out is was a mag problem that was soon resolved. But, mine was gone by then. Pictures and measurement. I'd like to see the OP's nose dive compared to other properly functioning mags. 1917



I take that back, I do have a picture of the feed ramp and chamber. No sharp edge that I was envisioning. I certainly can't say what could be done to a ramp like this if the nose is catching. Re profiling might fix it....might ruin it properly. I still think it is a mag issue. Should be easy to remove the slide, stick a loaded mag in there and take a good picture though.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,567 Posts


Is this what a CCP mag looks like? Is this the way the rounds sit? Wildbill45 noted way back how stiff the mag springs were. Are they still stiff? I don't see how the nose of this round could be shoved down unless there is a lot of drag on the rim of the cartridge against the underside of the mag lips......so......I'd run my thumbnail under the edges of the lips and have a feel. If rough and if leaving gouge or scratch marks on my rims after chambering a round......I'd take one mag and polish the underside edge of the lips with some 400 to 600 grit emery until it was smooth and then test again. Just break the edge to rid it of any stamped rough sheared steel...don't change the shape.

I'd also inspect the inside edges of the front of the mag body....under the nose of a round and make sure that was smooth on the inside also if I determined the nose of the round or the case was hitting there. 1917
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
617 Posts
...It would be helpful for discussions like this if we had more pictures and measurements posted here...
You are right there 1917. Wish I could provide more information, but I've been totally Walther free for several months. I just kept a few broken CCP parts for old times' sake.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,567 Posts


Picture off the net.....exactly which CCP, don't have a clue but it is dirty and has been shot quite a bit in this picture. What is interesting is that you can see where the nose of whatever round style or styles were being fired were interacting with the feed ramp. They begin way down there almost off the bottom of the ramp cut. Do they all hit there? Do they move up or down as the stack goes down? I'd have to own one to answer that.

BTW, in looking at the pictures of CCP mags on the net....the upper mag body under the nose of a round seems to change to at least three different styles. What appear to be the originals are flat with a small rounded out center. The one I pictured above has a larger rounded out portion and one appears to slant toward the left. Amazing how poor the selection of pictures is on the net and there is nothing I can find regarding differences between orig, A, B, C and D mags. Apparently Walther is still searching for something. My shield 9mm mag will not let the nose of a round drop and there is considerable drag on sliding a round forward. My P99 mags have a very low mag body in front of the nose of a round but the rounds slide out butter smooth even when 15 are in there. You can press the nose down but you have to exert considerable force to make the stack move down when you do so. 1917
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,567 Posts
Remember a round sitting in the locked in mag is being held down by the bottom of the breech rail. It is not in contact with the mag lips. That only happens when the slide moves rearward allowing the lower rounds or follower to quickly shoved the top round up and against the mag lips only to be immediately rammed in the rear by the face of the rail moving forward. Is the mag stable? Is the stack of rounds still bouncing from upward movement and recoil? The round is sitting nose up or should be when it is kicked in the upper rear edge of the rim by the fast moving breech rail and since the front of the round is heavy lead....does that create a momentum that causes the nose to dive. Not to mention the nose of the firing pin and the extractor need to be worked around. It all gets kinda complicated pretty quickly. 1917
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
24 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
1917-1911M Stated: Is this what a CCP mag looks like? Is this the way the rounds sit? Wildbill45 noted way back how stiff the mag springs were. Are they still stiff? I don't see how the nose of this round could be shoved down unless there is a lot of drag on the rim of the cartridge…

Yes, that is correct.

This evening I did some more testing on the magazine.

First I disassembled it and made sure that all parts and the spring are inserted correctly.

With no rounds in the magazine the follower face is perfectly parallel with the top of the magazine.

I can insert up to four rounds into the magazine without any gap between the top and second round. They are still parallel to each other. The fact that rounds are slightly larger diameter at the back exacerbates the problem. Interesting that this unparalleled issue does not rear its head with the PPQ double stack.

As soon as the fifth round is inserted there begins to be a slight gap between the nose of the top two rounds. As each successive round in inserted that gap gets bigger until the eight rounds is inserted when the gap is the greatest at almost 3mm.

The larger the gap the greater the top round takes a nose dive as it is shoved forward because there is nothing under it to prevent the nose dive.

My first guess is that if the magazine only ever had four rounds in it everything would be fine. That I will test at the range next time out.

Also noticed that both magazines have a “D”. Maybe the “E” versions have some modification or sorts but that is unknow.

chandler5566: Thanks for the CCP problems link.

Right now I am almost thinking that I might even try bending the follower such that the nose end of the rounds sits about a 1~2mm higher in the magazine. I think this could eliminate the gap between the top two rounds thereby aligning the top round directly forward into the feed ramp for all rounds.

I would only try this with one magazine so I always have the original to go back to if that doesn’t work.

Thanks again to all of you who have chimed in on this thread. There has to be something that can be done to solve this mystery.

Everything about the CCP is great overall even thought it does get hot after a while but in a self defense situation it starts off cold and eight rounds would not matter.

Walther's reputation is on the line with this gun. Either their R&D section will take the necessary steps to run it through the ringer until they find the problem or one of us will. I think it will be one of us first though.

Max
~~~
 
1 - 20 of 87 Posts
Top