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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Perhaps there is another option for PP .22 mags. It seems P22 parts can be made to function in a PP mag pretty easily but there is one catch to that effort....you have to have a PP .22 magazine to begin. Now if I had a mag that is still produced and at not too great a cost could it be made to work in a PP. And, one showed up in the mail just the other day sent from a well known Member here. The package also contained an empty PP .22 mag with a broken left ear.



On the left is a functioning PP 22 magazine. In the center is the one that arrived in the mail with a broken left ear. It contains P22 parts at present. The one on the right is a Bernadelli .22 magazine. You can see that there is no cutout for the mag catch, the left, front ear is not cutaway to clear a PP ejector and the width of the front cutout is much narrower than a Walther magazine. Perhaps all of this can be changed to work with a PP. The advantage here is that these magazines are available for about $40 while PP .22 mags are very hard to find and cost about $150.





On the left a functioning PP .22 mag. In the center a functioning PP/P22 mag with a broken ear and on the right a Bernadelli .22 magazine. As can be clearly seen, the left, front lip will need major modifications to function in a PP pistol.



A Walther PP .22 magazine on top, the Bernadelli on the bottom. Very little difference in the rear notches. The Bernadelli is appx 1/4" taller so the bottom plate will have to be modified to stop it at the proper reach. The mag catch only works to stop the magazine from being pulled out. It won't stop over insertion. But, a number of solutions could be made to stop the longer mag from running into something it shouldn't.



Where to start? First the magazine must fit into the magwell of a PP. The sample I have does, but the fit is too tight. So that will have to be corrected first. Then inserted to the correct height, will the breech rail fit through the rear gap properly. After that, the hard work begins....how to modify the front ears and front of the mag for proper feeding. Unlike the P22 follower that can be ground and ground and another grabbed out of the bag for further testing...this is the only mag I have so I will need to plan carefully and remove material carefully. If this proves to work then I can drill a hole for the mag catch and shape it appropriately. At this point I will be able to test fire. If all of that works then the bottom of the mag or the bottom finger extension can be made to stop over insertion. BTW, all dimensions, front to rear, rear width, width of the front mag spring barrel, distance between feed lips are all essentially the same as a PP mag.

Again, if all of this gets into reinventing the wheel and requires 15 hours of work....it won't be worth the effort. I'm still waiting on someone to provide some info on what Walther did for magazines in the zinc PPK/S pistol. Are they essentially P22 mags with P22 dimensions. If so, they are too large.



P22 up top, Bernadelli in the center ( note the rear of the mag is longer than the adjacent PP .22 mag ) Walther PP .22 mag on the bottom. More on this later. 1917
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 · (Edited)
Reserved. 1917

Edit: What I've learned so far. The left lip cutout on a PP magazine is generous for avoiding the ejector and the steel follower reaches pretty high and wide. This is of course not a problem on a PP for which the mag was designed and didn't pose a problem when installing a P22 follower.

But on the Bernadelli there is a bit of a complication....one I think we can overcome but it has to do with the top of the follower. First, the top of the follower is tapered in. This is not good for engaging the ejector but is necessary for the shape of the magazine. Secondly, again P22 stuff fits fine....follower, spring, plate and the bumper base from a P22 fits better than the original on the one I have. It even locks in place with stock P22 stuff.

I was able to lock the slide back, insert the B (Bernadelli) mag until the left, front lip hit the leg on the ejector. I marked that and got out a small file. I filed from the front to the rear until I had removed enough material to clear the ejector leg. Then I filed downward at an angle to match a PP mag. Since this magazine doesn't have a hole for the mag catch (yet) I took a close look at how high the left rear lip on a stock PP mag reached. Level with the top of the decocking lever. If the lips reach any higher they will not allow the ejector to drop far enough to free the slide. There is a very narrow gap between the top of the left, rear lip on the mag that allows the ejector to drop into so that it will clear the breech face and allow the slide to close. This will be very important when fitting the slide catch notch. The mag has to sit at the proper height.

So, loading a few rounds, inserting the B mag to the proper height, stock follower and P22 follower, how did it manually feed. It fed perfectly....manually, not firing. I've no way to stabilize the position of the magazine yet. I then inserted an empty B mag with a stock follower. Retracted the slide and it locked back......barely. The bottom of the ejector leg is being pressed up just barely enough by the slanting side of the follower to catch. This will not be good enough for long term use. Neither the stock or modified P22 follower will engage the ejector foot. Why? Because nothing is tapered. The stock follower center portion has plenty of height but is too thin to reach the ejector. The flattened P22 follower that works fine in a PP magazine will simply not reach high enough. The top of it bangs into the base of the fingers. If I carefully reshape it, leaving the front, round portion alone then it will likely work very well. If I were to grind off some of the top of the stock B follower....that would make it fatter and it would engage the ejector leg better but....it is already a very short follower.

In fact, when installed with stock parts the rear of the follower cannot be pressed down. It binds. Press on the middle and it is 50/50. Press on the front nose and it is smooth as silk. Install a stock P22 follower, spring etc. and it is smooth regardless of where you press it. I have found in the past that when you cut a follower down making it shorter in height...so you can add more rounds...you can interfere with reliable movement. So once again, a P22 follower might be a good option here. The B mag spring is a 1/2" longer than a P22 spring but both fit fine.

At this point there are three or four remaining jobs to accomplish. Try to imagine a way to make the stock follower engage the stop arm reliably. Modify a P22 follower that will feed properly and engage the ejector arm. Determine exactly where the mag catch slot should be positioned and drill/file one to match a PP. Lock in height will be critical. Too high will not let the ejector drop far enough, a mag sitting too low will probably not feed properly and complicate the engagement of the follower/ejector. Then of course something needs to be added onto the bottom of the mag to keep it from being over inserted. It is appx 1/4" longer than a stock PP Mag.

Modifying the stock follower is out of the picture as far as I'm concerned unless a tiny screw could be added to the left side at just the right height to operate the ejector and not interfere with feeding. The head would not have to be tall. Something similar to the PP pull down pin would be just right. Perhaps a small wedge of something glued to the side of the stock follower. But, I'm thinking a taller P22 follower has several advantages. You just have to cut it off to match the stock follower, then taper in the places that need a bit of taper so the follower will reach higher while preserving the wide nose for positive engagement with the ejector foot.

This particular mag was just a little bit tight fitting into the magwell. The problem was the rear sides were just a little too wide. I could see wear where they were rubbing and filed a little material mostly off the right side. I wan't to keep the left, rear rail/ear away from the ejector. It too can stop the ejector from dropping if the mag sits too high.

Other than that, a round will easily slide out of the mag and into the chamber. With that in mind this looks like it might work. 1917
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)


Here is a real PP .22 mag with one round installed, pulled down against the mag catch....as it would sit in the pistol.



And a Bernadelli .22 inserted to match the previous picture. There is no catch cut into the mag yet but this picture is to present what the breech rail will see. I might have to widen the gap between the rear legs slightly....but I'm doubting it will be necessary.



One round sitting in a PP .22 mag, locked in.




Same side shot of a round held by the Bernadelli .22 mag. There is no mag catch but the mag is set at the proper height to match a PP mag. This shows how much the left ear will need to be modified.

1917
 

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Your photos are excellent but sometimes it's very difficult to read the text. Is it possible to use a bigger font size?

That's the way it looks on my PC:

 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Balogh, see if post #3 looks any different. I enlarged the text there and for this post. But I'm not sure anyone else is having your issues or I'm sure I would have heard about it. I'm not sure what is going on. Size #6 1917
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)


The B mag follower is on the left, new P22 on the right. Both fit the B mag body perfectly. The B mag follower is tapered so it will reach high enough in the B mag body. The P22 follower fattens out and runs into the B magazine body before the wider area can engage the ejector foot.



The B mag follower is on the bottom with a new P22 follower sitting on top. The only thing we are really trying to accomplish is make the follower, either one, reliably engage the ejector foot so the slide will be held open after the last shot. Other than that, we could proceed with the stock follower to see if it works when firing in a PP.



I'm betting a tiny blob of JB Weld stuck onto the side of the stock follower will engage the ejector foot just right, is easily filed to fit, filed to remove and sticks like concrete.



Here is how much too long the B mag is when properly inserted into a PP frame. A flat base from a P22 mag is installed with the stock B mag bumper sitting at the bottom.



Above is a stock PP mag being inserted to show how much clearance there is between the left, front ear and the ejector foot. More than enough. And you can see how high the follower reaches to press the ejector up.



Above is a stock B magazine being inserted into a .22 PP. You can see the left, front ear runs smack into the bottom leg on the ejector. 1917
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Your photos are excellent but sometimes it's very difficult to read the text. Is it possible to use a bigger font size?

That's the way it looks on my PC:

The problem might be with the size of my photos. Sometimes they go huge....like in this thread. I need to resize them...somehow. 1917
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Balogh, when you wake up tomorrow and get a chance you might look at post #1 and see if there is any change. I resized all of the photos in that post. They were huge....that might have been the problem. If not. I'm out of ideas. 1917
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Balogh, when you wake up tomorrow and get a chance you might look at post #1 and see if there is any change. I resized all of the photos in that post. They were huge....that might have been the problem. If not. I'm out of ideas. 1917
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
At this point the JB Weld will wait. I think it will work well on both followers. But, no point in worrying about that until I can lock the magazine in the pistol and see if it will function when firing. If so, then I will worry about making the ejector work properly on an empty mag and devise a filler for the longer mag body. Now to figure out a simple way to make sure I cut the catch notch just right. 1917
 

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Balogh, when you wake up tomorrow and get a chance you might look at post #1 and see if there is any change. I resized all of the photos in that post. They were huge....that might have been the problem. If not. I'm out of ideas. 1917
Yes, that's exactly the point. The problem is that externally linked photos are always displayed with their native resolution and lack a resize function. On a standard PC screen it's impossible to view a huge photo completely. The only possibility is to set the browser's view to 50% or even less which makes it very hard to read.





These two screenshots I took on my tablet with HD resolution before you downsized the photos. You can notice that the bigger text size helps to read. With photo dimensions that don't exceed the screen size (like they are now) it's way better and most of all more comfortable because there is no need to always adjust the browser's view.

Look, for me and I think for most users with standard PC displays it looks perfect now:

 

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I have accumulated about a dozen original Walther/MH rimfire PP magazines and am glad that I don't have to fiddle around with magazines to make them work. I picked them up years ago before the prices went sky high. With a little patience, original Walther - and especially the old France marked - PP mags can be found around $100.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I do notice that the huge photos are sharper than resized ones but I certainly don't want to make it hard for Members to read the posts. I will resize in the future. I didn't know that needed to be done. I don't click on the enlarge photo anyway but due to your concerns I did click on a couple and I could see the molecules in them. They were huge. Sorry about that. Hope the new ones, downsized to 400/600 or so work better.

Andyd, no wonder there is a shortage of these mags. I and others find them very hard to locate. If you run across some links to sales, please let us know. 1917
 

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I do notice that the huge photos are sharper than resized ones but I certainly don't want to make it hard for Members to read the posts. I will resize in the future. I didn't know that needed to be done. I don't click on the enlarge photo anyway but due to your concerns I did click on a couple and I could see the molecules in them.
I just found out that the resize option (can be found in User CP, Settings & Options) unfortunately doesn't work dynamically. The default values of 600 are too small for today's display sizes and setting the values to 0 isn't a good idea too (obviously I set them to 0 sometime), but it works for my PC display pretty good with the values like on the following screenshot. Even the huge 4K photos show up reasonable. One has to try which values are most suitable depending on the used equipment. I'm sorry that I didn't look for better settings first. I didn't want to cause any inconvenience.

 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Bought a beautiful PP .22 today for $550. Now where were we. The top of the Bernadelli mag has been modified. Not much to that. The stock follower will engage the ejector but not overly so. While fooling around with the PP mag and P22 parts I determined that the magazine must be left with a little slack...at least on my pistol. As previously reported the P22 bumper base is too tall and won't let the mag lock in. It is easily modified but unless you remove enough material to allow some slack...the PP mag won't feed properly. Slim it down a bit more so that the mag is loose like a stock one and it feeds properly.

The morale of this is that a magazine must fit properly which means the catch must be located properly on the B mag. Also, there is a small slot between the top of the left rear mag wing and the down ejector. Through this slot a portion of the breech rail runs. The ejector drops down just so and the mag must be positioned just so or the slide will be caught. I mean, this fitment has to be pretty dang precise. It is with stock components on the PP, now the trick is to make sure the B mag fits properly. It will fit properly if I carefully place it at just the right height and allow the slide to move forward. It will allow a round to be shoved straight into the chamber. Now to figure out how to place the catch slot precisely.

Then, see if it will feed while firing. 1917
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·


Above is a photo of the breech face, magazine lips and ejector/slide stop as positioned by a stock PP .22 magazine. In order to make the Bernadelli magazine feed properly it will at least be important to cut the catch slot so that a round is held high enough for the breech rail to shove it out of the mag and into the chamber. It is also critical that the mag not sit too high or the left rear rail will interfere with the slide stop dropping down in align with the cutout under the breech. If the stop arm can't drop into position the slide will not move forward.



Photo of the same breech but with the Bernadelli .22 magazine inserted to match as closely as possible how a PP .22 mag sits. It look as if the mag catch is cut properly that the mag will operate the slide hold open and feed properly....at least it does while hand cycling. Firing might be an entirely different kettle of fish. You learn a lot about the details of the pistol when doing something like this. Now to see if I can get that mag cut properly. 1917
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
On the job training tonight....almost messed up the B mag because of not seeing something. I think I stopped filing just in time. Shooting will tell.

First I should say this is a used mag and I really have no history of what might have been done to it before I got it, not that it was filed on or anything....I just don't know. So, all of this is based on a used Bernadelli .22 mag. I also had to squeeze in the bottom of the mag so I could quit fighting putting on the bumper plate. And then, the very thin steel spring base needed just a tiny bit of steel removed from the sides at the rear. There is no need for this part to fit tightly in the base of the mag.

OK, I'd advise making a wood box for holding the mag when you work on the feed lips, the front of the mag and cut the mag catch. I didn't, I used a vise and while being careful with my tightening....I pushed the center of the mag in just a bit....nothing that I can't press back out and only a couple of 10 thousandths....but this is the kind of stuff you don't want to do to the mags. You already have enough careful work to accomplish.

I carefully located the position of the mag catch hole being careful to begin a little low at the top and then file more steel away until it locked in just right. Just right was determined by squaring off of a real PP .22 mag and a lot of in the magwell eyeballin'. But I still missed something...a couple of things actually.

First, the front of the mag which until this point was stock needs to be lowered or it actually stops the mag from being inserted enough. What happens is the stock cutout on the nose of the mag which is much smaller than on the PP simply runs into the bottom of the feed ramp at the last minute and stops the mag from moving up. This is nothing you want and there is no harm in removing plenty of metal....but, I just took off enough with a round chainsaw file to lower it 1/32" or so.



This thing now locks in like a real PP Mag. But keep reading. All is not finished.

With the slide open....the mag was locking in....everything looking great...empty mag, loaded mag. But when I closed the slide and tried to insert a mag it barely locked and then only when I wiggled the mag. More careful inspection...I filed a bit more material off the catch hole...still within a safe amt. Better, but not great. Time to reinspect details with a real mag vs the B mag.
What I found is that with a round in the mag, when you pull the slide back the stop drops, lands on top of the rear left top rail of the mag....and then the breech barely has enough room to move forward with no pinching of the slide stop.....stock mag.

On the B mag, what was happening is the left rail was jamming into the part, making mag insertion bind and allowing the slide to move forward but pinching the stop arm between the rear left rail and the bottom of the breech. To fix this I lowered the left, rear mag rail by filing off the top perhaps 0.010". I'll measure all of this when I'm finished. That cured tight lockup and I can see that the slide has just about the same amt of clearance as with the stock mag. The clearance is the thickness of a thin piece of paper which is how tight these pistols are.

The next problem is that the pistol will not manually eject consistently. It will pull a live round out but not always kick it out. A stock mag flings em out of there. The ejector notch is apparently very tiny and on close inspection again....the B mag is holding the rim of the case away from the ejector notch. So I got out the calipers to measure the width between the various lip parts on top of the B mag as compared to original measurements and PP measurements and that 12" jaw vise has smushed in the center of the mag just a few thousandths.....at least enough to keep the rim away from the ejector. When and if I finish all of this....and I haven't even fired the thing yet....I will sum it all up to save a lot of time the next time someone might attempt this.

Again, the whole value of this exercise is to make a functioning mag for a PP .22. And the Bernadelli mags can be purchased new for $40. That beats $150 for a used one I think. Especially if you can't find a used one. 1917
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
The next step will be to widen the center of the mag back to specs and make sure a rim is allowed to hit the ejector. Then if that begins to work properly and I can hand cycle a full mag of rounds with no problems it will be time to begin test firing. 1917
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I'm not up to Ulm grade work yet....almost Umarex grade....passed the CCP bench a few weeks ago. :p 1917
 
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