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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Another poster has supplied a excellent site with bullet performance chart. Lucky Gunner http://https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mmhas an excellent chart which shows you bullet manufacturer, weight, penetration through 4 layers of denim and ballistic gel, expansion, and muzzle velocity. If you tap on the penetration section of a particular bullet it will bring up a picture of the ballistic bell penetration. Tap on the photo of the bullets and you can see the actual expansion of the 5 rounds. Want details on a particular bullet tap on the section titled Ammo and you will get detailed info on that bullet including a video on the first shot into the bell.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Couldn't make your link work....had to get to it a different way. See if this one works.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
Yep, that works, thanks. I don’t want to confuse anyone, so I’ll try correcting it. But, if I do that then your post would be confusing, maybe I should just leave it alone. I think I’ll just form a government study group to determine the right course of action. By this time next year I should have a solution.:D
 

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The very best SD round is the one you have the most confidence in. Period. End of story.

No amount of testing by learned scholars or pundits will change that. Carry what you shoot best and what you like to shoot.
 
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Discussion Starter #6
The very best SD round is the one you have the most confidence in. Period. End of story.

No amount of testing by learned scholars or pundits will change that. Carry what you shoot best and what you like to shoot.
I totally agree with your statement above if you are punching holes in paper or shooting in competition but when it comes to stopping an attacker that is not ideal. When I’m looking for a defense round I look for 3 things. Penetration, the bullet must penetrate far enough too reach the vital organs without over penetration. Expansion, the bullet expand properly even through several layers of heavy clothing. Wound channel, if the bullet does not produce a significant wound channel the trauma to the body is significantly reduced. What about accuracy? Here is where shooting a tight group can work against you. 2 bullets that produce a 2” diameter wound channel striking 1” apart will create a maximum wound channel of 3”, striking 2” apart a maximum of 4”. So, a tight group is less effective as a wider group. I can improve my chances more by selecting a bullet the creates a larger wound channel.

This is where a chart like this helps give you the best performance needed to stop an attacker. Of course, if I can’t shoot a round with a reasonable degree of accuracy its not going to work. So, I look at the work done by the preparers of these charts select a round based on the above mentioned criteria. I buy some and compare how well I shoot them. Accuracy becomes the 4th criteria in selection of a defense round.
 

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I totally agree with your statement above if you are punching holes in paper or shooting in competition but when it comes to stopping an attacker that is not ideal. When I’m looking for a defense round I look for 3 things. Penetration, the bullet must penetrate far enough too reach the vital organs without over penetration. Expansion, the bullet expand properly even through several layers of heavy clothing. Wound channel, if the bullet does not produce a significant wound channel the trauma to the body is significantly reduced.
Just a comment re olsoul's input.....the 3 performance characteristics are incorporated into his one sentence.

I have researched the hell out of ballistic performance for both 9mm and 45acp and finally arrived at the conclusion that quite a few of the brands perform equally well in all 3 categories. Here are two of the best......HST 147gr +P and HST 230gr +P.
 

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OldSoul is absolutely correct. If your gun feeds it correctly and you’re comfortable with it, then it will make a hole, no doubt. So far the Remington Golden Saber 147 Gs feeds like a champ, same as the Speer GD 124 & 147. I’ve referenced Lucky Gunner labs many times and based on depth and expansion I’m going to move over to the Remington GS 147 fwiw.
 

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Despite all the hoopla and marketing from ammo manufacturers, in real world data, when a gun has been used in a shooting, the ability to stop the attack between all ammo calibers is virtually the same sans the .22 round. The data does not distinguish what type of round was used....only the caliber. Which further illustrates that the best defense round is any bullet in any gun locked and loaded and ready to go.

Using ballistic gel and denim studies while interesting, doesn’t correlate all that well to stopping an attacker.

Now, I know many will “flame” me for saying this.....but the data supports the fact that other than a .22 all ammo has about the same ability to stop an attacker.

Furthermore, while many of us likely target shoot with one round and carry another, make dang sure that your gun will fire and cycle without failures. Don’t test with 5 rounds....run a few mags to be sure. Feed ramps, recoil springs and magazine springs can be finicky.
 

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.... Furthermore, while many of us likely target shoot with one round and carry another, make dang sure that your gun will fire and cycle without failures. Don’t test with 5 rounds....run a few mags to be sure. Feed ramps, recoil springs and magazine springs can be finicky.
Hope no one goes negative on you. Heck we’re all supposed to be responsible for what and how we shoot, at least that’s why I want to continually learn. The day I know it enough to stop listening and learning is the beginning of my troubles.

For what you said WDR, you’re spot on that all bullets have the potential to kill and if your gun doesn’t feed them consistently, then it’s out of the fight. I’m just now getting comfortable with my PPS and for its final test put 200 rounds of Speer GD and Remington GS in 124 & 147 gr respectively, 50 each. I’m at about 1000 rounds total and after break in I’m at 100% consistency. Lucky Gunner labs are good to make a supporting decision on what one chooses and I just really like the idea that my SD ammo has the right potential to drill a big hole and stop, not fly out the other side.

I’ve learned during practice to shoot what’s left of my SD ammo in my mags then use my range ammo for the balance. You do different?
 

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Over my years I guess I have learned many things. I try to share my wisdom but often get flamed 🙂

- Carry loaded and one in the pipe. If you don’t, it really doesn’t matter what ammo you carry. If you are afraid to carry with one in the pipe, get a revolver.

- Anything other than a .22 is essentially the same. A loaded and condition 1 ready .22 is still better than an unloaded .44. Mag.

- Regardless of any gun and any ammo, your best defense is situational awareness. Use your head to avoid situations in the first place.

- Train, Train, train.

🙂
 

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Excellent information... I will take the recommendations and go get a tilt 1 with 300 lumins instead of the 800... I have never tried turning it on at 3 am in the morning... that’s why we ask the experts here! Thankfully I do practice with the ammo that is loaded... BTW Sig 230 grain in the 45! Runs flawlessly... I love this forum, you guys are invaluable!
 

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Over my years I guess I have learned many things. I try to share my wisdom but often get flamed 🙂

- Carry loaded and one in the pipe. If you don’t, it really doesn’t matter what ammo you carry. If you are afraid to carry with one in the pipe, get a revolver.

- Anything other than a .22 is essentially the same. A loaded and condition 1 ready .22 is still better than an unloaded .44. Mag.

- Regardless of any gun and any ammo, your best defense is situational awareness. Use your head to avoid situations in the first place.

- Train, Train, train.

🙂
Couldn't agree more.
 
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