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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Considering vacations to a few of the national parks which led to thoughts about bear country and what to carry for our personal protection if the situation arose. My first thought was using the PPQ 45 with my standard carry ammo of 230gr HST +P. Naturally I questioned whether that would be sufficient so I did some internet research on bear attacks and handgun kills. Needless to say there are accounts of kills with a variety of handgun calibers but I wonder if the smaller calibers were simply luck?

That led me to investigating heavier and more powerful rounds which would necessitate purchasing a new handgun which I would prefer not to do. That moved me in the direction of staying with the PPQ 45 but using a more powerful 45 round. Discovered the 45 Super and 45smc rounds from Buffalo Bore, Double Tap and Underwood. After researching those and discussing with those ammo dealers it appears that those 2 rounds are as good as 10mm without having to purchase a 10mm pistol. Even though the PPQ 45 should handle those hotter rounds I would still want to purchase a Jarvis barrel for several reasons including the hardened steel, a fully supported chamber and the land & groove rifling.

This brings me to ask for your thoughts regarding my proposed weapon choice….so please feel free to approve or disapprove…..with reasons.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Those big revolvers make "follow up" shots very difficult. I own one handgun worthy of bear country.....
After reviewing a Hickok45 video on the DE 50ae and listening to his comments re the comparison between a 50ae revolver (S&W 500) and the DE I would agree that a revolver increases time for follow-up shots.
 

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I live in bear country (Southeast Alaska), hike a bunch and photograph wildlife. I've been eye to eye with quite a few bears in my wanders. Never had an issue but you never know - a buddy of mine had to kill a bear that charged him last summer. I carry a Springfield 10mm with a 4.5in barrel (the 5.25 in barrel was just a tad to big/heavy to lug around and quickly get into accurate action for me). I have it loaded with Underwood Xtreme penetrators (but think a heavy hardcast round would probably be just as effective - I'm opting for penetration). I feel that's about the minimum to carry and hope to be effective. That said, my buddy killed his bear with 4 shots of a heavy, hardcast .40 from his Glock. I'd think a .45 just doesn't have the required velocity to really get much penetration. I do carry a PPQ .45 for personal defense when not hiking however.

Enjoy your travels!
 

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My 19 year old son is currently in Bethel, Alaska (almost in Russia), working as an ATC at the airport.


I find it odd he's NOT allowed to carry a handgun in this dangerous location, he ended up purchasing an AR-10 for personal protection. Retarded gun laws.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I'd think a .45 just doesn't have the required velocity to really get much penetration. I do carry a PPQ .45 for personal defense when not hiking however.

Actually, a 45acp HST +P is very potent. I saved a video with a test between the 10mm and 45acp FMJ +P and the penetration through slabs of beef ribs with watermelons between and a leather jacket covering everything was impressive. However, in case the bear doesn't have his leather jacket on or carrying his watermelons I would like a bit more power and that's where the 45 Super and 45smc enter the picture.

Take a look at the ballistics comparing 10mm, 45 Super and 45smc ammo from Buffalo Bore, Double Tap and Underwood. The ballistics are certainly interesting.

Marksmanship Matters | Comparing the 10 mm, 450 SMC and .45 Super for Predator Defense
 

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Having been charged by two black bears in the last 15 years I can say that bear spray works as long as the wind is right. National Parks Rangers use it on patrol. I have never seen a brown/grizzly bear in the wild, but I would say that if the bear is just lingering around and annoyed that bear spray is probably a good first option. But in the event of an aggressive rather than defensive charge a gun is the best choice. In black bear country I load Underwood Xterme Penetrator 9 MM +P+. If I were in grizzly country I would own a 44 magnum. If you are going into bear country get bit of education on recognizing the difference between a defensive and aggressive charge. an aggressive charge warrants using a gun.
 

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Errrr', those are 8ussy loads. Get a 460 Rowland. :D

This first-rate cartridge will do just about anything you could ask a pistol cartridge to do! Weighing in at 185gr and traveling at over 1575 fps, this hard, heavily-jacketed hollow point is reasonably heavy, very hard and well-balanced. These qualities allow it to expand fully to deliver tremendous hydrostatic shock and respectable penetration as well … every single time. Loaded with flash-suppressed powder, it is ideal for clear shooting in low-light environments.

Our Unique and Proprietary products are Often Copied but Never Duplicated, so don’t be fooled by fraud. Look for our Federal Trademark Insignia, (“®”), to be sure.

We have inventory, our prices are as low as anyone’s … and we are simply the best. Please allow 2 weeks for delivery. Due to Department of Transportation regulations, we cannot accept returns on ammunition.

Johnny’s Personal Carry:

Bullet Weight: 185 Grains
Bullet Style: Nosler Jacketed Hollow Point
Case Type: .460 Rowland® Brass
Muzzle Velocity: 1575 fps
Muzzle Energy: 1019 ft. lbs.
Power Factor: 291
 

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Informative read - thanks. Those suped up .45 rounds weren't on my radar but they are now. I didnt see the Xtreme Penetrator mentioned which may have been interesting but the heavy 10mm vs heavy .45 data was very useful. If I handloaded I'd certainly load hot 10mm rounds, that's for sure.

Actually, a 45acp HST +P is very potent. I saved a video with a test between the 10mm and 45acp FMJ +P and the penetration through slabs of beef ribs with watermelons between and a leather jacket covering everything was impressive. However, in case the bear doesn't have his leather jacket on or carrying his watermelons I would like a bit more power and that's where the 45 Super and 45smc enter the picture.

Take a look at the ballistics comparing 10mm, 45 Super and 45smc ammo from Buffalo Bore, Double Tap and Underwood. The ballistics are certainly interesting.

Marksmanship Matters | Comparing the 10 mm, 450 SMC and .45 Super for Predator Defense
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Errrr', those are 8ussy loads. Get a 460 Rowland. :D

This first-rate cartridge will do just about anything you could ask a pistol Bullet Weight: 185 Grains
Bullet Style: Nosler Jacketed Hollow Point
Case Type: .460 Rowland® Brass
Muzzle Velocity: 1575 fps
Muzzle Energy: 1019 ft. lbs.
Power Factor: 291
Do you own one of those? I need to do some research on it and the parts required for conversion. Any idea what the pressures are for the round?
 

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I DID own one. Sold it, along with a bunch of other firearms during one of my clean out the safe episodes.

Even an old fart could shoot that thing....it really wasn't that bad. What IS bad is 1,000 ft. lbs. of energy. :D
 

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I live in maine, will be clearing some land out on a mountain loaded with black bear soon. My 5" ppq with 40 will be fine. If it was brown bear country, nothing less with 44 mag.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Even an old fart could shoot that thing....it really wasn't that bad. What IS bad is 1,000 ft. lbs. of energy. :D
Unfortunately I would have to buy a new pistol plus the 460 kit, magazine spring/follower times 2 or 3 additional magazines. That puts the total around $1300-$1400. Rowland did test the PPQ but rejected it due to the higher bore axis.....they obviously do not want excess muzzle flip.

For the cost I could look at a couple of the Desert Eagle models but that means I have a dedicated pistol instead of something that offers flexibility. I really don't want a revolver because that would slow follow-up shots. Back to the drawing board.
 
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