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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi guys, I recently purchased this Walther PP locally and I've done some research but I want a few experts to weigh in on its value before I list this beauty online for sale.

By the serial number it seems to be a 1940-1941 manufacture commercial PP which bears the rare "R.J." stamp and also has the rare box extension magazine (which, granted, is scratched and the back lip has broken off). The R.J. mark is of plainer text compared to some other R.J.s (usually those have a cross bar on the J) but seems to be correct for the year of manufacture.

I will take some better pics after setting up a light box but here it is:























Also, I'm no collector and bought this with the intention to turn a profit. What online sites would be the best for that?
 

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Fourth varation PP, probably made in (early) 1941. R.J. stands for 'Reichsjustiz' (Reich-justice). Boxed mag extension is a nice addition, but of course not correct to a justice gun.
 

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Just FYI - I doubt you’ll get much in regards to value or places to sell - flippers aren’t very respected in the hobby.
On the other hand, if a flipper manages to unearth something I desperately want and couldn’t have found on my own, I’m grateful to him for that. There is nothing dishonorable in choosing to make a living (or augment a more conventional source of income) by doing the work to get desirable products to market, whether it’s guns, cars, houses, or whatever floats your boat.

Most flippers of stuff are generally enthusiastic about the type of stuff they choose to flip, so I don’t resent them unless they rip off the people they source their goods from. A flipper who tells an old lady her wartime PP is worth $100 and takes it from her isn’t the kind of guy I’m talking about. But if he gives her a fair-ish price while providing her a service, and then makes a buyer happy, and makes some money along the way, I’m all for it.

Most of the great guns I own came to me because a flipper was able to find it, buy it, and then offer it up for sale on GunBroker.
 

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...A flipper who tells an old lady her wartime PP is worth $100 and takes it from her isn’t the kind of guy I’m talking about. But if he gives her a fair-ish price while providing her a service, and then makes a buyer happy, and makes some money along the way, I’m all for it...

Point taken, and fairly helping widows sell off their husband's guns is a service.
Moon
 
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On the other hand, if a flipper manages to unearth something I desperately want and couldn’t have found on my own, I’m grateful to him for that. There is nothing dishonorable in choosing to make a living (or augment a more conventional source of income) by doing the work to get desirable products to market, whether it’s guns, cars, houses, or whatever floats your boat.



Most flippers of stuff are generally enthusiastic about the type of stuff they choose to flip, so I don’t resent them unless they rip off the people they source their goods from. A flipper who tells an old lady her wartime PP is worth $100 and takes it from her isn’t the kind of guy I’m talking about. But if he gives her a fair-ish price while providing her a service, and then makes a buyer happy, and makes some money along the way, I’m all for it.



Most of the great guns I own came to me because a flipper was able to find it, buy it, and then offer it up for sale on GunBroker.
Agreed, in a sense they can help preserve - but the wartime bring-back market is very heavily weighted toward the take advantage vs help out. Why don’t we ask our buddy here how much he paid for this PP as an illustration?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Agreed, in a sense they can help preserve - but the wartime bring-back market is very heavily weighted toward the take advantage vs help out. Why don’t we ask our buddy here how much he paid for this PP as an illustration?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It was a good deal more than $100, but ten percent lower than the seller's asking price. FWIW the seller did recognize that the "R.J." mark added to the gun's value, but neither they nor I realized the magazine did as well when we agreed to the price.

What ROI would exonerate me in your eyes?
 

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Look I don’t know you and you have nothing to prove to me, as long as you can sleep at night. What I can tell you is a local, large brick & mortar gun shop here offer’s 60% cash of what recent average gunbroker auctions have fetched. If you have a brick & mortar shop with significant overhead 60% of retail seems fair. Look at your personal expenditures and adjust as needed.

What I can tell you is I’ve personally haggled vet’s families up and spent more than asking price on multiple occasions because they didn’t know what they had. I’m not a martyr it’s just what I need to sleep at night.

Best of luck.


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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
Got my lighting decent, here are some more pictures. I've looked at a couple of R.J.s on Legacy Collectibles and in comparison mine seems to be right around 96%-97% of original finish, with most wear spots on the edges, the muzzle, and the top lip of the beavertail and bottom heel of the backstrap.
 

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I’m not going to give you an appraisal, but I’m going to tell you that if I were looking for a R.J. PP I would likely bypass your gun because, even though the serial falls within the correct range, the font of the letters does not match the style usually found on these.

This proves nothing either way, but the R.J. pistols are still pretty sparsely researched.

Many collectors, including in old threads here, repeat the nonsense from the PanchoGun Collection website about the “Reichs Justiz Ministerium of the NSDAP” and that these were the side arms of officials of the “Nazi Justice Ministry”.

The Reichsjustizministerium existed since 1919, was part of the civil administration, and just like the R.F.V., had nothing to do with the Nazi party, although of course they administered Nazi law after 1933. There is also no indication that its officials carried anything but briefcases. The R.J. much more likely stood for Reichsjustizverwaltung, the justice administration as a whole, and the pistols were issued to the Justizwachtmeister (court bailiffs) and corrections officers. This topic calls for more research.
 

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... if I were looking for a R.J. PP I would likely bypass your gun because, even though the serial falls within the correct range, the font of the letters does not match the style usually found on these.

...
I had the same thought...

M
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
In my internet research I've seen two other R.J.s with a 213xxx serial that have that same font. So if anything it's the rarer variant.
 

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hmmmmmmm, i would like to see some legitimate RJ s without the white paint. am curious whether they were roll stamped or etched like slide markings.... my guess is the latter.... in which case the OP's RJ do not look etched.

Something to look for when I am in Louisville in a few weeks
 

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..... i would like to see some legitimate RJ s without the white paint. am curious whether they were roll stamped or etched like slide markings.... my guess is the latter.... in which case the OP's RJ do not look etched. ...
Me too. The problem is that I don't think we know for sure what a "legitimate" R.J. stamp looks like.

If you look at the random snips I just fished out of old auctions on the web, there are definite variations especially in the J, and in the distances of letters and dots, so these were not standardized roll stamps.

The OP's format may well be, in fact likely is, a legitimate local variation. There is just no way to verify it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Skip, your gun seems to have the simple "R" that's on my R.J. and the classic "J" on the typical example. I came across your old thread asking why the font was different; I guess they transitioned those stamps out around 1942.

I've been logging the serials and marking type on R.J.s and I've now found five including mine with the 213XXX serial and the same simple font. Waiting to confirm a sixth. The guns I've found with the classic R.J. mark range from 1934 (8188XX) to 1940 (203078P).

According to Legacy Collectibles, a third variation exists where the RJ is in simple, non-italicized blocky font and stamped on the back strap instead of the front strap.
 

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.....
I've been logging the serials and marking type on R.J.s and I've now found five including mine with the 213XXX serial and the same simple font. Waiting to confirm a sixth. The guns I've found with the classic R.J. mark range from 1934 (8188XX) to 1940 (203078P).

According to Legacy Collectibles, a third variation exists where the RJ is in simple, non-italicized blocky font and stamped on the back strap instead of the front strap.
In the absence of definite documentation, data accumulation is all we’ve got, and if you have six specimen with the same style variation confirmed from different sources, that’s pretty good provenance, and solid support for originality.

According to Dieter’s book, the backstrap variation was the later variant . They seem to be rare. I’ve never seen one, and a cursory search online fails to produce even a picture, though lots of the front strap version.
 

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I would like to see photos of the other five with the odd letters, so if the OP will post links to his research, it will clear up this matter easily I've looked and searched for this variation which have turned up a number of RJ but few of them show the RJ initials and in the few examples shown, they have the serif font.

Th OP's is a fine PP in excellent shape.
 
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