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Discussion Starter #1
Hello All,

I am new here and also new to handgun ownership. I recently purchased a PPS M2 LE. It has 150 rounds downrange with a variety of ammo. I'm really pleased with the workmanship and ergos; I am completely satisfied and feel this is a really great purchase. Those of you who may ask or want to know about barrel peening - there is none at all to this point (2018 BI, AW series).

The only problem I have is with the shooter (me). I cannot yet consistently group my shots, and as a result, cannot identify where my shortcomings might be (stance/sighting/grip/trigger pull - probably all of the above). I plan to continue live fire at the range when possible but am considering laser training options because dryfire with snapcaps is getting old quickly due to the lack of feedback. I know I may require professional help (in more ways than one) but don't have the time or budget just yet.

I found a few options and the iTarget system looks to be the best for the price - BUT their website notes indicate that owners of the Walther PPS have had "problems" with the laser cartridge. I dropped an email to them asking if the reports were for the 9mm M1 or M2 but doubt they can provide an answer. Honestly I am confused because I thought 9mm was 9mm, but remember I am new to all of this.

I have searched here and other forums but cannot find any information other than for a competing product (Laserlyte) 9mm laser cartridge that appears to work in the M2.

Does anyone here have experience with the iTarget laser cartridge? Or can anyone offer feedback for similar products?

Thank you for your time - I have read hundreds of threads on this forum and I am impressed with the kindness and wisdom of experience that has been shared here - THANK YOU!

-John-
 

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I like the idea of a laser trainer so I am interested in it as well.

It took me about 300 rounds to feel comfortable shooting this gun.
 

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I like the idea of a laser trainer so I am interested in it as well.

It took me about 300 rounds to feel comfortable shooting this gun.
 

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Hello. Good for you for trying to become a better shooter.

I will soon be an instructor and I work with many new shooters.

In general, find a distance where you can shoot consistent.

It’s hard to know your issues with out seeing you shoot.

Recommend you find a local hand gun instructor. Watch videos
 

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Does anyone here have experience with the iTarget laser cartridge? Or can anyone offer feedback for similar products?
No to your first question and yes to the second one.

I use the software from a company formerly called L.A.S.R., now known as Shooter Technology Group http://lasrapp.com/. They also sell (although they do not make) the SureStrike laser cartridge which I use with the system. The website gives pretty comprehensive information on the use of the system and they have various software plug-ins such as additional target templates and self-monitoring (video).

I have two setups at home, a 10 meter range for static precision (bullseye) practice as well as a 5 meter range for holster drills. The results of your practice sessions can be archived.

I think that dry-fire practice is very important if you want to progress, but I agree that without feedback it can get monotonous very quickly. Here is an example of the feedback you get (25 shots at 10 meters with a recently acquired Q4, conventional sights. White disc is 5cm/2"):



Balor
 

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I have never used laser trainers. But, I think having a laser on your gun is a great way to train and get feedback. With a laser sight on your pistol, you can dry fire (with snap caps) and see if you are pulling off target. Then practice trigger pull over and over until you see improvement. You will know if you are disturbing the sight picture.

You can also do the same, except with live fire, at the range. The laser sight will definitely let you know if you are pulling off of target. I think that is very good feedback for learning to shoot better. For myself, I have always used a dime on the front sight with snap caps. That tells me if I am keeping my sight picture still, or if I am jerking the trigger, etc. It is old school I suppose, but it worked quite well for me. Also, it only costs $0.10 :D
 

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Discussion Starter #7
No to your first question and yes to the second one.

I use the software from a company formerly called L.A.S.R., now known as Shooter Technology Group Shooter Technology Group.

Balor
Thanks for your input. Since posting I have found the SureStrike cartridge system you speak of using with this software and discovered that the 9mm cartridge from the "kit" is sold separately. For an additional $60 I don't need the case and adapters for other calibers at this time. This cartridge appears to be far superior to the competition as it is a stainless steel case with a glass lens and has a "sleep mode" to conserve battery life. Amazon (item#B0089GEP76) is priced at <$90. with Prime shipping; Laserammo.com is currently at $99. plus shipping.

I will try this with the iTarget app (free) to begin and may expand from there.

Again, many thanks for your feedback.

-John-
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I have never used laser trainers. But, I think having a laser on your gun is a great way to train and get feedback. With a laser sight on your pistol, you can dry fire (with snap caps) and see if you are pulling off target. Then practice trigger pull over and over until you see improvement. You will know if you are disturbing the sight picture.

You can also do the same, except with live fire, at the range. The laser sight will definitely let you know if you are pulling off of target. I think that is very good feedback for learning to shoot better. For myself, I have always used a dime on the front sight with snap caps. That tells me if I am keeping my sight picture still, or if I am jerking the trigger, etc. It is old school I suppose, but it worked quite well for me. Also, it only costs $0.10 :D
Thank you for your response. First off, the only way I could keep a dime on my slide or sight would be to glue it in place... my hat is off to you!

I have previously considered your laser suggestion but thought I might disturb my grip or sight picture by moving the handgun by trying to get a better view of the laser strike (read about others doing this), therefore introducing one more issue to correct. I do see the value of this while live firing though, as you can get feedback from the target hits without wondering if your sight picture is correct.

Thank you for taking the time and effort to respond.

-John-
 

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I ordered the “Premium Kit” mainly to have an easily visible case to keep everything together and because I thought that the threaded pipe together with the orange plastic end-nut would help to stabilize the cartridge. I can vouch for the fact that the pipe/nut are not necessary - the 9mm cartridge sits very snugly in the chamber/barrel without their help, so it can be used on its own. By the way, those adapters for other calibres are not included in the price - they are optional extras.

If I remember rightly, ordering the software together with hardware gets you a discount on the sum and I think orders over $100 are shipped free in the U.S. In any case, I'm very pleased with the system and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it.

Regarding the point made by socrates007 on using a mounted laser aiming aid, I would point out that the L.A.S.R. software allows a setting which will record movement of the barrel after the striker has made contact with the cartridge. Your hits then show up on the screen as lines, rather than dots, revealing in which direction, and by how much, your barrel has moved - so they're “frozen” and can be analyzed, as opposed to the trace of a laser aimer which (as you mentioned) you might not see and in any case you would have to memorise.

Balor
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Heard back from iTarget... Need some PPS wisdom!

iTarget just replied to my email question concerning the "problems with iTarget laser cartridge and Walther PPS". I am impressed that I received an answer so quickly (24 hrs) - and on the weekend to boot. Here is their reply:

"The issue was that the laser would stay on between shots. The gun is designed in such a way that the firing pin exerts continuous pressure against the end cap keeping the laser on. We have a different style end cap that we can send you that pulses on/off. If you order, send us an email right away with your order number and we can include the pulse end cap with the shipment. Or else, we can send one later...
Thank you,
Joe"


I am admittedly largely ignorant of the actual firing pin actions/location after striking the "primer" area of a cartridge on a dry fire round and how it may differ from other designs - I have no idea if this could possibly be true, unless the other laser cartridges use a pulse on/off endcap to begin with. Your thoughts? Thanks in advance for schooling me once again.

EDIT: In thinking this through I cannot see how this could possibly be true... When I field stripped the firearm for cleaning I saw no firing pin/striker protruding and, in fact I just looked at a mechanical parts breakdown of the M2 and see, as expected, a "striker return spring". I'm no mechanical genius but I think my pal Joe of iTarget has some inaccurate technical information. Bear with me as I learn - thanks.

In any event I am impressed with Joe of iTarget for his fast reply.

-John-
 

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Well, here's another even faster reply - and from someone who has nothing to sell to you.

The SureStrike cartridge reacts to a strike on the endcap by giving a brief on/off pulse. Continued pressure on the endcap after the strike will not cause the laser to project any further light - there needs to be another strike to activate the pulse. A version of the endcap is available which switches on upon being struck and remains on until a second strike switches it off - useful, for example, for adjusting sights.

As for the reply which you received from the company (Quote): The gun is designed in such a way that the firing pin exerts continuous pressure against the end cap keeping the laser on. I'm afraid I would consign that statement to the malodorous pile outside the horse stables.

I do have a Walther PPS (not M2) and the SureStrike cartridge functions flawlessly in the pistol, as can be seen from the following session, done less than two hours ago (25 shots at 10 meters):



Balor
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Summary

Thanks all for your input, wisdom and recommendations. Thought I would summarize results for someone looking through this info in the future.

I purchased the SureStrike laser cartridge from Laser Ammo. It works perfectly with my M2 and I am pleased with this decision. (Thanks Balor)

So far I have used these softwares:

1.) iTarget app (https://www.itargetpro.com/) (free w/ in-app purchases) on an iPhone (also available for Android). It works well, lets you adjust target (bullseye or silhouette) overlay for your paper target with zoom and pinch functions for perfect alignment. This app also has a light-sensitivity adjustment so the app will only see the laser hit without false hits generated by stray ambient light. It has an audio gunshot sound and the target display shows the bullet holes and "hit" score as they are made. This app also keeps total score and total shots fired; screenshot attached if I do this correctly. (Not bad for the price:))


2.) Shootoff App (ShootOFF - Free Dry Fire Laser Firearm Training Software) for Windows/Mac/Linux (free with Wiki and GitHub respository). This is a virtual shooting range. I scrounged up an older webcam from a drawer and installed this on both a Windows 10 and a Windows 7 PC. I haven't even scratched the surface with this, but did print a supplied target for my wall and used an adjustable steel target overlay. The shots "plink" with the sound of steel when hit, and the sound of a Walther PPQ when off-target (but in webcam view). It can also tabulate scores, be used with action on a projector, etc. No screenshot attached, but it is similar to a screenshot posted earlier by Baylor for the app he uses. (Shooter Technology Group Shooter Technology Group)

This is a blast and I've got maybe one-hundred "rounds" fired with each and enjoyed them both. I like that both will not register "laser drags" (at least severe ones) - my trigger control has already improved with this feedback. Now if the improved skills and technique only carry through to the range and live fire... we'll see.

-John-
 

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I really like using the laser bullets in my gun... NO laser trainer is like my gun, my trigger. You can get these for about $39-$99 online. I have LaserLyte and one of the cheaper ones and both are great. If you put free G-Sight app on your phone, you'll have good method to track your shots and groups. There are some good and bad (talkative) youtubes on these. You'll get thousands of shots on each battery. GGREAT tool

Regis
 
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