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Discussion Starter #41
We need to slow down a bit...

OK, you are going to shoot CCI Mini Mags. Those are perfect for testing.

As far as an adequately clean chamber goes you should be able to drop a new, clean round into the chamber. Gravity will cause it to drop with a plunk. If it doesn't then we need to look at other things.

Likewise if you tilt the pistol muzzle up the round will slide out of the chamber. It might be necessary to shake the pistol a bit.

If all of the above works then you are ready to go shooting. Forget about manual extraction for the present. Just load and shoot. Keep a firm grip on the pistol and the spent cases should fly out while the slide chambers the next round. If the spent cases won't extract or eject when firing...then we have to dig deeper.

There are slight differences in the shape of rims one brand of ammo to the next. The extractor might work on some and on others not when manually cycling the slide. We will tackle that next. First, remember, when firing the extractor plays no part in extracting a spent round. Burning gasses that propel the projectile out the muzzle of the barrel also blow the spent case out of the chamber with enough energy to cycle the slide and cock the hammer and bounce the case off the ejector and out of the pistol.

Check if rounds drop into the chamber freely and then go shooting. Firm grip. Then report results. One thing at a time. 1917
I went the range yesterday and tried the CCI Mini Mags and the bullets jammed...failure to eject. When I went to the CCI standard velocity with the lead tips....worked like a charm like it did before....I was very happy with it again :)
 

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Now that is pretty odd. So let's make sure we are on the same page regarding jamming/failure to eject. I assume the pistol is feeding unfired rounds fine until one of the extracted, just fired empty cases goes sidewise, stovepipes or otherwise gets caught by the slide. When this happens has the bottom of the breech rail begun to shove another unfired round out of the magazine but fails due to the jammed spent case. In other words...exactly what is happening...we need a description. Is the spent case not extracting from the chamber or being shoved back into the chamber or is the spent case out of the chamber and sitting there at an odd angle holding the slide from chambering the next round and closing.

I find it odd that Mini Mags are not working. The P22 can suffer from short stroking due to the weight of the slide. When this happens the slide simply isn't blown far enough rearward by the case for it to eject and sometimes it simply gets shoved back into the chamber. Lighter velocity rounds don't improve this. Yet you report that your pistol is functioning better with std CCI ammo.

The only thing I can think of, and we have seen it recently but very rarely, is that the chamber isn't machined quite right and the case on the Mini Mags is expanding just enough that it is taking too much of the blowback energy to push the otherwise stuck case out. I wonder what luck you would have with CCI Stingers and Velocitors. The stinger has a lighter weight of 32 gr as I recall but is much faster. Velocitors are 40 gr and have the most energy of any .22 LR round that I've seen. If the case is expanding against an imperfect chamber perhaps those two would perform similar to the Mini Mags.

The extractor does not play a part in extracting a spent case from the chamber but it does play a part in making sure the spent case pivots properly out of the chamber. Unfortunately on the P22 the extractor fit against the rim of a round isn't tight nor is the rear end of the round recessed and held securely on the breech face for precise impact with the ejector.

If you want to add pictures of a typical jam or two you can join Imgur (free site) and host your pictures. Copy there and paste here. Glad to hear at least one type of round is performing properly. I don't think this is related but make sure your mags are clean too...and that means the inside of them and the follower. Properly functioning magazines are as important as any other part on a semi auto. After we get this sorted we can look at what is going on with manual extraction problems. And remember, the pistol has a lifetime warranty. 1917
 

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1917..I kind of understand what you are saying and I will definitely give it a much better cleaning but no one can explain why when I am cycling the slide why the copperheads jam and the lead ones don't. That really baffles the heck out of me.
I'm not sure what you are calling copperheads. I don't know of any .22 ammo by that name. Manual extraction on a P22 has never been very good. The reason is the extractor isn't very sharp and the rim of a round is not held firmly on the breech face. So, the cartridge can easily slip out from under the extractor. This is particularly true when extracting the last round when there is no remaining round in the magazine supporting the one you are pulling out of the chamber. It usually just falls off and you have to tilt the pistol over.

On the other hand there is a difference in how the cases on various brands are shaped. Some are more rounded than others and are more prone to the extractor slipping off the rim. I expect the difference between the two you are manually extracting above is due to a slight difference in the shape of the rim where the extractor catches.

Most .22 ammo is pretty uniform in regard to case length. The case on CCI Stinger rounds is noticeably longer than on other long rifle ammo. There was a ton of discussion about all of this 15 years ago. Way, way back most of the discussion still exists or is in stickies or FAQ threads. BTW, I have good luck with bulk Remington Golden Bullets and always have. They are less expensive than CCI but when you are trying to sort an issue out it is most of the time best not to be mixing all different manner of ammo into the equation. 1917
 

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Above is a picture of the underside of the breech block showing a round sitting against the breech face and a VQ extractor. If you compare it to the earlier picture of the stock Walther extractor you can see that the VQ fits tighter. I sent them all the info years ago and asked them to make some extractors to help cure erratic ejection direction issues the pistol had. Walther eventually also moved the tip of the extractor rearward. But, as you can see...none of them hold the rim tightly and the bottom of the breech face is open which can allow a round to simply slip off and fall down when manually extracting...especially if you don't pull the slide back fast. As long as you can pull the round out...I wouldn't really bother with does the pistol sling the round out there 6'. But this is all part of the history or changes. I've made extractors with no play, with a very sharp edge and they work 100% regarding the distance and angle of ejection. Walther can't do that because they sell the pistol world wide and some ammo in other countries have thicker rims.





The above picture is of a Walther made PPQ .22 or a Walther made Smith and Wesson full size 22. They are the same here. Note that a small tongue has been added to the bottom of the breech face so that a round can't fall off of the breech face when being extracted. Also notice that they have installed a no nonsense extractor that really grips a rim. These pistols manually extract and consistently eject very nicely. The P22 has never gotten this treatment and a round falling out of place when manually extracting has been an issue since day one. Not a serious issue in my book but still...Walther knows how to build firearms.

BTW there are only three such choices like a P22 out there. The P22 was the original, then Ruger joined the game with the SR22 and then Smith and Wesson made their own compact (Walther makes the full size). In my opinion the P22 has the best trigger and is the most accurate. With the exception of California you can purchase and install a 5" barrel on a P22. The CA version that you have is exactly the same as every other P22 out there except for the barrel nut that holds the barrel tightly against the frame. The P22 was originally placed on California's assault pistol list and could not be sold. Walther worked a deal with them where the barrel nut would be installed with something like red threadlocker and with no wrench lands for removal. That way it is a bit harder to remove the barrel nut, install a silencer adapter and silencer (suppressor). Walther made the pistol from day one with a removable nut so that owners could shoot with either a 3.4" barrel or 5" target barrel. Of course any time you make an already threaded barrel....a suppressor for it won't be far behind. Probably not legal in CA but they sure make shooting .22 ammo quiet. Pellet gun quiet. 1917
 

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I have found that in a new P22 or when replacing the recoil spring with a new one, keeping it in the safe with the slide drawn back (unloaded/empty chamber) and slide-locked helps enormously.

Also, never use oil on a P22. Use dry Teflon spray or moly-based lubes.

After a month or so storing the P22 in this manner the recoil spring will get a run-in and it will cycle practically everything ever made afterwards.

Only the Aguila .22 Colibri and the similar CB Longs will never cycle a P22. All LRs with are loaded w/at least a 32-grains bullet ought to do the job 100%.

The "softening" of the recoil spring PLUS using Teflon spray or moly-based lube, will make the P22 happy to cycle anything fed to it if it says 'Long Rifle' on the box.
 

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I can put all rounds in the same hole at 25M too. :cool: I might, might I say...put up a photo of your pistol. That should be threat enough. 1917
 

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Test target for now

I can put all rounds in the same hole at 25M too. :cool: I might, might I say...put up a photo of your pistol. That should be threat enough. 1917
My P22 is currently work in progress.

I shot this target on Saturday with some CCI Blazer that my P22 seems to like.

Five shots @ 25m (82 yards) in 10 seconds, offhand. The 10 ring is two inches in dia.

:)
 

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Not bad, not bad....you might want to sharpen that pencil a bit though for cleaner holes in the target. On the other hand please give us your opinion on why the OP's pistol is cycling fine on regular CCI ammo but not with others including CCI Mini Mags. This would eliminate short stroking as a problem. The spent cases are not being ejected with the Mini Mags and are causing stoppages. I'm at a bit of a loss to explain this other than a too tight chamber ( or some other manufacturing problem in the chamber) and the case is expanding and sticking against the walls but still being blown out eventually. 1917
 

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My guess is TIGHT CHAMBER or manufacturing error on the barrel

Stoppages. Failure To Eject and mashed cases are quite common with the Walther SSP, the Walther GSP (older) and w/the newer EXPERT models, so it must be the chamber.

Too tight maybe or a tad longer (on the SSP the bbl needed to be positioned a bit forward, which solved most stoppages), or badly manufactured bbl.

A change of barrel is the go-to solution in the P22 as it is a simple affair.

I have not read all the posts so I am knocking ideas here from the top of my head. Dismiss if you have read/heard this before.

The OP may try a few tricks I learned from trying to fix this problem on the SSP and the GSP Walthers: lightly lube the bullets with some Hoppes#9, or moly, or Teflon, or Break Free, or any light lube available and see if that helps.

Another possible area to look at is the ejector on the P22. It might need some work with the Dremel. Not the extractor located on the right side of the slide, but the ejector that is integral to the frame.

Finally, the recoil spring may be acting up for some reason too. It may need swapping, changing, softening, even cutting a coil off.

If a bright spark lights up I shall edit this.
 

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I agree Crete, I think it is a chamber problem. Unfortunately we have seen just a very few of these issues here during the past year. A light honing by Ft Smith has cured the issue. I'm still thinking the more powerful mini mags are expanding against uneven chamber walls and are binding a bit. If the OP didn't have a CA model I could mail a test barrel to her and she could test the pistol with one that I know works perfectly. If she can't sort it out it needs to go back to Ft. Smith for a little free touch up. 1917
 

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It may have something to do with the California-specific Walther P22 model that has a non-removable barrel, ergo no sound suppressing using a muzzle can, or something of that nature. For some reason this mod has messed up the specs somewhere along the way the bbl is suffixed to the frame that is causing the issues. The geometry/angle of the fixed barrel may be in question.
 

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Just out of curiosity have you thrown a micrometer on the two different type rounds?

Sent from my SM-T290 using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter #53
Just out of curiosity have you thrown a micrometer on the two different type rounds?

Sent from my SM-T290 using Tapatalk
No, but I took it the range again yesterday and it performed flawlessly with the lead tipped CCI Standard Ammo
 

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I'd be interested in hearing how it performs with Remington Golden Bullets. If you are content with it functioning with select ammo you are good to go. But if it won't fire CCI Mini Mags I would want Ft Smith to look at the chamber. The pistol should feed, fire and eject anything that is powerful enough to cycle the slide. Some Winchester and Federal rounds simply aren't powerful enough. This applies to other ammo as well of course. But Mini Mags have a long history or running 100% in P22s. 1917
 

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Hi ... I just joined the board after reading it for the last couple days. I ordered a P22Q in the 'military' black/ OD green scheme (Model 5120715). Won't have it for a while, but have been reading and learning a lot about the P22Q.


Anyway, I wanted to chime in on this thread, and agree with 1917 that it's probably a chamber issue if the more powerful CCI rounds fail to eject compared to the less powerful rounds. Could be the chamber is out of round, or there is a nick or other flaw in the chamber that allows the expanded brass the "lock on to". I had an issue like that once on a 38/357 magnum revolver where the brass would stick in the cylinder chambers if I used 357 Mag, but wouldn't stick in the cylinder chambers if I used 38 Special. The cylinder chambers on that gun were machined rough (chatter marks) that allowed the expanded brass to lock onto the surface of the chambers.


So I would be interested to see if the OP can take a spend brass case of both the CCI regular and the CCI Mini Mag and try to insert the spend brass back into the chamber. Also, try to insert the spend brass in different clocked positions to test the chamber roundness. If the Mini Mag won't fit back in to the chamber then it's definitely been expanded more then the regular CCI round. If clocking the spend brass in different positions while trying to insert into the chamber changes how it goes back in, then that could indicate a slightly out of round chamber. It could also be that the chamber is just slightly larger in diameter than it's supposed to be for some reason. Anyway, just a few thoughts on this problem.


I'll be reading more on this great source of P22 info as I wait for my P22Q to arrive. :D
 

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Welcome ZeeP22Q. Join in the fun. Yes it is odd that the more powerful mini mag ammo isn't cycling properly...but, it has been seen before and recently. The problem was in the machining of the chamber. Prior to recently I don't ever remember the chamber causing a problem in any P22 here or at RimFireCentral. Unless it was fouled and not cleaned. 1917
 

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It may have something to do with the California-specific Walther P22 model that has a non-removable barrel, ergo no sound suppressing using a muzzle can, or something of that nature. For some reason this mod has messed up the specs somewhere along the way the bbl is suffixed to the frame that is causing the issues. The geometry/angle of the fixed barrel may be in question.
What! What! What???!!!!! :eek: 1917
 

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Welcome ZeeP22Q. Join in the fun. Yes it is odd that the more powerful mini mag ammo isn't cycling properly...but, it has been seen before and recently. The problem was in the machining of the chamber. Prior to recently I don't ever remember the chamber causing a problem in any P22 here or at RimFireCentral. Unless it was fouled and not cleaned. 1917

Yep, if it was mine I'd remove the slide and take a strong light and a magnifying glass to look at the machining/smoothness of the chamber. Look for any kind of nicks or flaws in the chamber surfaces. Also do the "spend brass insert test" at different clocking positions to check for chamber roundness.


Thanks for he welcome. :D
 

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No-go for a fired case in the breech/chamber is normal

Re the chambering of a fired/spent case, forget it.

A fired case ought not enter the chamber in the same way as an unfired one anyway.
 
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