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Discussion Starter #21
That makes no sense to me either, but guns do not have sense so it might be the gun. The ejection disparity between the lead and copper rounds is obviously caused by something. Your experience is that the FTEs happen after firing a round and when racking the slide to eject. If it were only when firing, I would guess it was casing expansion but since it also occurs without firing that hypothesis fails.

That leads me to believe there are these possibilities.
1. The ejector malfunctions with certain ammo.
2. The casings on the ammo that fails have a tiny bit more diameter.
3. The chamber of your pistol is out of tolerance which could be residue or brass buildup, or it could be out of tolerance upon manufacture.

My recommendation is that you first call CCI and explain what you are experiencing to customer service and see it they have any idea about the cause. If they do not, then I think you have to call Walther to have the gun sent back for examination.

Finally, since the problem was not evident initially when you shot the gun it makes me think that either the chamber has some minuscule debris or the ejector is damaged.

Beyond what I have written I have no more thoughts about the cause. Good luck in getting the problem resolved.

Added: one more thought. It might be that the casing of the copper rounds expands when the bullet I’d pressed into place. Since the led is softer it would not likely do that. Just another possibility to question.
Also, when you clean the chamber remember that is is a greater diameter than the barrel. So a 22 wire brush is not going to clean it as well as possible. Clean the chamber from the chamber opening and be certain to put adjust pressure to assure good contact with the chamber walls.

I have ordered a 25 caliber brush and it should be getting delivered today so I will try and clean with that one. I have also seen videos for cleaning this gun that they use an air compressor....I did not do that...I wonder if that indeed needs to be done on this weapon.

I have emailed Walther and they sent back an email about the ammo to use and I was using one of the ones that they recommend.

I am wondering if polishing the feed would cure the problem.

How would the ejector get damaged from cleaning it?

Again, forgive me because I am very new to this.
 

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Discussion Starter #22
Have you tried the Mini Mags at the range or just hand cycling? As I recall two different forces are involved both dealing with “extracting” the casing.

When hand cycling to clear the unused bullet, the extractor on the slide must catch the lip of the rim. If the extractor fails to do that it could be the extractor is faulty, or the bullet is stuck.

When firing, the extractor plays no part as the act of firing ejects the spent casing from the barrel, and out the port (a bit more involved...). If the round doesn’t have enough energy to properly expel the round things don’t work well. you may get fail to eject, stove pipes (casing stuck in ejection port), fail to feed as the slide didn’t get shoved all the way back.

Hang in there.


Yes, I have tried the mini mags at the range and that is where the problem was first discovered. I had cleaned the gun on Saturday and went to the range on Tuesday and that is when the problem started.
 

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I have ordered a 25 caliber brush and it should be getting delivered today so I will try and clean with that one. I have also seen videos for cleaning this gun that they use an air compressor....I did not do that...I wonder if that indeed needs to be done on this weapon.



I have emailed Walther and they sent back an email about the ammo to use and I was using one of the ones that they recommend.



I am wondering if polishing the feed would cure the problem.



How would the ejector get damaged from cleaning it?



Again, forgive me because I am very new to this.
I would not recommend removing material by "polishing" anything. Also that would only affect feeding issues, not ejection issues. The barrel bore is grabbing too much on the plated/jacketed rounds, so a good lead/copper solvent and a brass bore brush with some old fashioned elbow grease should fix that issue, unless there's an out of round condition in the barrel from factory. Based on the fact you said your first trip to the range firing 300 rounds had no issues, I would attribute your out of round/interference fit issues on lead/copper fouling.

I've never actually damaged an extractor from cleaning, but I'd imagine it's possible. Check for wear or chips taken out of the edge of the extractor. Cycle the slide slowly with a round to see if it even grabs the edge of the casing.
 

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I have ordered a 25 caliber brush and it should be getting delivered today so I will try and clean with that one. I have also seen videos for cleaning this gun that they use an air compressor....I did not do that...I wonder if that indeed needs to be done on this weapon.

I have emailed Walther and they sent back an email about the ammo to use and I was using one of the ones that they recommend.

I am wondering if polishing the feed would cure the problem.

How would the ejector get damaged from cleaning it?

Again, forgive me because I am very new to this.
Buy a can of compressed air to blow out the chamber. Never hurts to polish the feed ramp, but I think that is not the problem. And ejector could be damages pt applying too much pressure to it by hand s or if the slide in engaged improperly. I doubt that is the problem.

Just read your post about the Mini Mag experience. I recall when I has a 22 that mini mages were dirtier than other loads. I just searched the Internet on the topic and many report that mini mags do tend to leave more residue in the gun so you might find that the 25 cal brush and compressed air will make the difference.

As for you just learning, that is normal for all of us. You just happen to be in a great forum to learn.
 

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For some reason this site no longer tells me when new posts show up and it has been pretty dead for months now.

The first thing to understand is how a blow back firearm works. The P22 has a fixed barrel and the gasses produced when you fire a round blow the spent case out of the chamber. The extractor plays no part. This energy acting against the spent case has to be powerful enough to blow the case out, push the slide rearward compressing the recoil spring and cock the hammer winding the mainspring. So quite a bit to accomplish. Some .22 ammo simply doesn't produce enough energy for all of this.

Next the chamber, not the barrel....the chamber must be clean. The chamber will foul on all .22 firearms. It will make it hard for round to fully seat ( slide held open just a bit ) and can hang up the slightly expanded case after firing. The cure here is to clean the chamber.

Since a .22 doesn't generate a lot of blow back pressure to begin with it is absolutely essential that the pistol be held firmly, especially with a light pistol like the P22, Ruger SR22, Smith compact, etc. Firm grip...always.

Dropping a round manually into an empty chamber is simply a quick way to check the cleanliness of the chamber. A round should simply drop in with a plunk. If it won't...clean the chamber. If it still won't, try different ammo.

Recently some Members here were having chamber extraction problems and we tried everything. The problem was the chamber had not been properly manufactured. A trip back to Ft. Smith for a free inspection, chamber polishing and testing cured the problem. This is something I've never run into with P22s. As most know I had in the past set up at a table and fired 3,000 rounds of Rem Gold Bullets with no stoppages, no cleaning, no lubing once shooting started. The pistol will run.

You cannot go by the velocity on the box...that is measured out of rifle barrels. 3.4" and 5" length have no relationship to it. There is a site that has interesting velocity and energy of a number of popular firearms down to 2". The P22 is one of the pistols. Ballistics by the Inch or something like that. I've posted the link a lot of time. Yes, ammo makes a difference. If your ammo isn't powerful enough the case will not extract and eject and will simply be shoved back into the chamber as the slide closes. Clean chamber, ammo that is strong enough, firm grip and this is a small pistol so make sure you hand isn't dragging on the slide....like your thumb on the left side. 1917

BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: Home
 

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Discussion Starter #29
1917..I kind of understand what you are saying and I will definitely give it a much better cleaning but no one can explain why when I am cycling the slide why the copperheads jam and the lead ones don't. That really baffles the heck out of me.
 

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Manual cycling really has about nothing to do with function when firing. The extractor is used when unloading the pistol, removing that last round. On the P22, because of the design of the extractor with a long tail it is possible to place your hand on the rear of the extractor and actually lift it while pulling the slide rearward. Keep your hand off the extractor unless you are really wanting the pull a stuck round out. If so, press down on the front of the extractor to add additional pressure against the rim.

Rim design varies from one brand to another. Some ammo doesn't have a very good rim shape for any extractor to get a good grip. Again, when firing the extractor doesn't pull the spent case out. Blowback gasses do that. The extractor does help with ejection direction.

Perhaps the rim on the copperheads is more rounded, perhaps the dimensions of the copper is slightly larger. We need to distinguish between manually extracting a round vs one extracting when firing. Firing is much more important. The P22 does not have the best extractor to begin with and the bottom of the breech face is open which can allow a round to slip down on the face and away from the extractor especially on the last round.

One Member either here or at Rimfirecentral had a recent P22 where the tip of the extractor simply didn't reach far enough forward to grasp a rim. He fixed it himself. The problem was the thickness of the extractor cut on the right side of the chamber. It was too thick and wouldn't let the extractor tip reach in quite far enough to grasp the rim. My 2018 QD works fine but a careful inspection shows that the tip of the extractor barely grasps the outer edge of a rim. Take a careful look at what your extractor is doing when you first begin to extract a round. Safety on of course. Is the extractor even trying to pull the rim rearward. If not, call Ft Smith. The pistol has a lifetime warranty including free shipping. But if the pistol fires and functions fine....just shoot up that ammo and then try something else like CCI Mini Mags or Remington Golden Bullets. They have enough umph and CCI anything is usually good stuff.



A P22 extractor generally reaches far enough forward to easily grasp a rim. However there are several things that can go wrong depending on which ammo, how clean is the chamber and if the pistol is up to specs. The small spring on the extractor doesn't really exert a lot of pressure on the front of the part or into the case in front of the rim.

I sent ideas to VQ 10 or 12 years ago asking them to make a better extractor and they did. It works the same way but the working tip is different and a bit sharper. I only care about blowback extraction/ejection when firing but you should certainly be able to use the extractor to unload real rounds. 1917



VQ extractor...about $20 but I was never concerned with manually extracting a round. All of the work I did on the extractors years ago was in regard to poor spent case ejection direction...many of which would hit you right between the eyes. When Walther made the PPQ 22 and the Smith full size .22 they changed the extractor shape, pivot length, tip sharpness and added a tongue to the bottom of the breech face to hold the rim in position until the ejector was hit. This cured it all. But the P22 remains essentially the same as day one except Walther did finally change the extractor tip a bit in about 2007. All of this is way back in the history somewhere. 1917
 

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One other thing that I mentioned a bit earlier. Some of these later P22s have shown up with bad chambers. This was unheard of during the first 12-14 years as far as I know. What happens here is a round will drop in but will not extract after firing. The case expands a bit and is locked in tight. It takes a wood dowel down the barrel and a solid tap to remove the spent case. If that is occurring and cleaning the chamber doesn't cure it you need to call Ft Smith and ask them to fix it. They are aware of the issue as rare as it might be. You could polish your own chamber but I don't recommend it. You can also ruin it and then it would not be covered by the warranty. By polish it I mean running something abrasive into the chamber on the end of a drill or Dremel. If a wire brush and scrubbing won't get it clean....time to go back home. It is OK in my opinion to spin a copper or brass brush in the chamber at slow speed on the end of a drill with cleaning fluid. Just don't heat anything up and stay out of the rifled area. I've never found this necessary. If one such cleaning doesn't resolve the issue...call Ft Smith. 1917
 

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Discussion Starter #32
One other thing that I mentioned a bit earlier. Some of these later P22s have shown up with bad chambers. This was unheard of during the first 12-14 years as far as I know. What happens here is a round will drop in but will not extract after firing. The case expands a bit and is locked in tight. It takes a wood dowel down the barrel and a solid tap to remove the spent case. If that is occurring and cleaning the chamber doesn't cure it you need to call Ft Smith and ask them to fix it. They are aware of the issue as rare as it might be. You could polish your own chamber but I don't recommend it. You can also ruin it and then it would not be covered by the warranty. By polish it I mean running something abrasive into the chamber on the end of a drill or Dremel. If a wire brush and scrubbing won't get it clean....time to go back home. It is OK in my opinion to spin a copper or brass brush in the chamber at slow speed on the end of a drill with cleaning fluid. Just don't heat anything up and stay out of the rifled area. I've never found this necessary. If one such cleaning doesn't resolve the issue...call Ft Smith. 1917
Thank you for all of your advice...it is greatly appreciated. Where is Ft Smith located so that I can search and find the correct phone number :)
 

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Discussion Starter #34
Just got off the phone with Walther and he told me that my gun was made in late 2018 or 2019 and that this one doesn't work well with the copperhead bullets because they leave a lot of debris behind. He said the lead bullets are the best one for this gun. Told me to take it out and shoot the lead ones and if I have issues then to call them and they will take it in and see if anything is wrong. He said it doesn't make sense to bring it in and find that it fires the lead bullets flawlessly.

When I get the larger brass brush, I will then clean it better and try the copper mini mags again. He also said this gun will fire the standard velocity better than the high velocity. I don't know if I am being sold a bunch of BS but I guess I have to try it first before I can call back again.
 

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I'm not familiar with Copperhead ammo but yes you've likely been handed a line of bs. Happens too frequently these days. Clean the chamber, try some CCI mini mags and Rem Golden bullets. These are all lead by the way...just coated with copper or brass wash. CCI makes some full copper rounds, expensive, but very fast ammo. The P22 has a much heavier slide than the aluminum ones on the Ruger SR 22 and the Smith compact. Some rounds will not reliably cycle a P22, doesn't matter what they are made of. Just not enough blowback energy....the 5" barrel is less ammo sensitive.



CCI full copper round. Compacted copper particles. 1,700 fps out of a rifle barrel. These are fast but a box of 50 is $10. I got one box out of curiosity. They worked fine in my P22s.


Customer service would not be able to treat those of us that know about such things in that manner. Yes I've cleaned the pistol, chamber, barrel, mags a number of times....same issue. Yes I've tried several brands of ammo including CCI, ........., same issue. Yes I'm holding the pistol firmly. Actually from my experience brass and copper wash do much less fouling of the barrel/chamber than plain lead or waxed lead. Case in point, Remington Thunderbolts. They lead up my barrels pretty fast in hot weather and that lead is very hard to remove. 1917
 

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Discussion Starter #36
I'm not familiar with Copperhead ammo but yes you've likely been handed a line of bs. Happens too frequently these days. Clean the chamber, try some CCI mini mags and Rem Golden bullets. These are all lead by the way...just coated with copper or brass wash. CCI makes some full copper rounds, expensive, but very fast ammo. The P22 has a much heavier slide than the aluminum ones on the Ruger SR 22 and the Smith compact. Some rounds will not reliably cycle a P22, doesn't matter what they are made of. Just not enough blowback energy....the 5" barrel is less ammo sensitive.



CCI full copper round. Compacted copper particles. 1,700 fps out of a rifle barrel. These are fast but a box of 50 is $10. I got one box out of curiosity. They worked fine in my P22s.


Customer service would not be able to treat those of us that know about such things in that manner. Yes I've cleaned the pistol, chamber, barrel, mags a number of times....same issue. Yes I've tried several brands of ammo including CCI, ........., same issue. Yes I'm holding the pistol firmly. Actually from my experience brass and copper wash do much less fouling of the barrel/chamber than plain lead or waxed lead. Case in point, Remington Thunderbolts. They lead up my barrels pretty fast in hot weather and that lead is very hard to remove. 1917
I'm just boggled because it was using the copperhead ammo just fine until I cleaned it and then it went bad. Wondering if I moved some crud somewhere it shouldn't be and that is why this is happening. Will clean real good tomorrow and hopefully get to the range on Saturday to try it out.
 

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Discussion Starter #37
Update....gave the gun a good cleaning and opened a new pack of ammo (copperhead)
CCI and they are popping out like they should be! I will wipe down the ammo that I was using yesterday (because that wasn't popping out until I wiped the clean). So happy that I got it figured out!
 

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You've lost me. What ammo are you using and what is the weight of the projectile? I'm not aware that CCI makes any .22 ammo called copperhead. How did you clean the pistol? We have said for a number of years when it is a question of gun or ammo.....get some CCI Mini Mags. If it won't run on those something is wrong with the pistol, cleaning or operator. A clean pistol has all of the debris from firing removed from the chamber and barrel, the breech face, etc. and has a clean but very small amt of lubricant wiped on wear parts. I don't use any oil...I use dry moly powder....rub it on wear spots with a Q Tip. I expect most people use a small amt of gun oil. Glad it is running but I'm not sure you have solved the issue. These pistols should run even when pretty dirty...with the right ammo and a firm grip. 1917
 

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Discussion Starter #39
You've lost me. What ammo are you using and what is the weight of the projectile? I'm not aware that CCI makes any .22 ammo called copperhead. How did you clean the pistol? We have said for a number of years when it is a question of gun or ammo.....get some CCI Mini Mags. If it won't run on those something is wrong with the pistol, cleaning or operator. A clean pistol has all of the debris from firing removed from the chamber and barrel, the breech face, etc. and has a clean but very small amt of lubricant wiped on wear parts. I don't use any oil...I use dry moly powder....rub it on wear spots with a Q Tip. I expect most people use a small amt of gun oil. Glad it is running but I'm not sure you have solved the issue. These pistols should run even when pretty dirty...with the right ammo and a firm grip. 1917

It was CCI Mini Mag (1235) that I put in the gun after cleaning. I have not taken it to the range yet....what I was speaking of is when I was racking the slide. I plan on going to the range late afternoon today and see is the issue is solved.....if not, then to Walther it goes.

I will look into the Moly Powder....I had not seen that or heard of it.
 

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We need to slow down a bit...

OK, you are going to shoot CCI Mini Mags. Those are perfect for testing.

As far as an adequately clean chamber goes you should be able to drop a new, clean round into the chamber. Gravity will cause it to drop with a plunk. If it doesn't then we need to look at other things.

Likewise if you tilt the pistol muzzle up the round will slide out of the chamber. It might be necessary to shake the pistol a bit.

If all of the above works then you are ready to go shooting. Forget about manual extraction for the present. Just load and shoot. Keep a firm grip on the pistol and the spent cases should fly out while the slide chambers the next round. If the spent cases won't extract or eject when firing...then we have to dig deeper.

There are slight differences in the shape of rims one brand of ammo to the next. The extractor might work on some and on others not when manually cycling the slide. We will tackle that next. First, remember, when firing the extractor plays no part in extracting a spent round. Burning gasses that propel the projectile out the muzzle of the barrel also blow the spent case out of the chamber with enough energy to cycle the slide and cock the hammer and bounce the case off the ejector and out of the pistol.

Check if rounds drop into the chamber freely and then go shooting. Firm grip. Then report results. One thing at a time. 1917
 
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