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all of the collectors I know NEVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

shoot their guns...

EVER....

None of them.......

and this is an old boys field who have gas trap garands and Lugers with weird rarity that maybe even Kokalis blushes.


My point....

collectors are collectors....that's it..


shooters are shooters....that's it.

All of the collectors give me the ammo they get from collections because THEY NEVER GO SHOOTING.

Hell, my last assistance was for some weirdo rare M1C model that I helped get on funbroker for the collector.
Came with some LC ammo almost 240 of it in clips and bandoleers.


For Walther collectors..

same thing from the ones I know.

That's why I am happy with my p1....I use it and shoot it and I even got a custom holster made for it in kydex which a local guy did for me.

Love shooting it.

take my point for what it is....

COLLECTORS NEVER SHOULD SHOOT .....

ever....
 

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Nice quote. ...guess the rest is too much to read....
Maybe I need to draw it and put it in two colors for you Mike?

I can easily do that. ..I do it all day as a special ed instructor. ..



Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
 

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Nice quote. ...guess the rest is too much to read....
Maybe I need to draw it and put it in two colors for you Mike?

I can easily do that. ..I do it all day as a special ed instructor. ..
You're not talking to your retarded students here. We get the drift without the yodeling. And it still isn't much.

M
 

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Ya know, this is the never ending story. Wanna shoot it, don't shoot it you'll hurt it, real collectors never shoot 'em. As a note, real collectors DO shoot them, and ones far more valuable then our entry level P-38's (I call them entry level because they don't cost what say, a quad 50 does, or even what one maw deuce does). Yes, they find these rare birds, lovingly care for them, display them, and once in a while go hog wild and live fire them. Be it a civil war cannon or an authentic STG44, they fire them and then show it on the history channel or other media for you and me to see. Me, the closest I'll get to that is my P-38 and my 22lr version of a STG44. I've owned the P-38 for 6 or so years now, give or take, and had to fire it, so I did, about 30 rounds and that was/is it. Now I know what it is like and if I want to do more I'll buy a post war variant but nobody, nobody, is going to prevent me the joy of enjoying those 30 rounds. You don't want to fire yours, fine, don't. You want to, go for it but do so in moderation. These weren't designed to be the accurate sidearms we can use for CCW that we have today, they were last resort weapons for close in combat so don't expect the best groups if you do fire her. Otherwise enjoy her either way you see fit.
 

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Discussion Starter #47
If you are going to shoot them, it helps to know what can happen ahead of time so that you don't have a heart attack when the slide cracks or ... whatever. Be careful of the ammo you select. Beyond that ... good luck. Lots of people fire their WWII pistols for years without incident. Others are candidates for heart attacks.
 

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These weren't designed to be the accurate sidearms we can use for CCW that we have today, they were last resort weapons for close in combat so don't expect the best groups if you do fire her.
It was the phenomenal accuracy of my P-38s that caused me to build one out of a steel WWII frame that I have carried on occasion as my CCW pistol.
 

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If you really must shoot a WW1/WW2-era pistol find one that's already mismatched and has little collector's value. Let the collectors have the ones with original finish and all-matching parts. They all shoot the same anyway, and if your mixmaster breaks something it's no big deal to repair it and keep shooting. But a pistol is only original once. I shoot my M1 Garand all the time because it's already a mismatch of parts, and I have a mixmaster 1911 that I shoot regularly as well. But I would never shoot my 1943 Colt because it's all matching and worth about $3000, and if I cracked the slide on it I'd end up with a $1000 mixmaster by the time I found a replacement.

But of course as a gun owner you can do whatever you want with your property. There was a news story a couple years back of a guy who inherited his father's WW2 M1911A1, and he donated it to a metal artist to melt down and make a piece of anti-gun violence artwork with. Of course it was his pistol, and his right to do whatever he wanted with it. It was still a crying shame to anyone who likes vintage guns.
 

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If you really must shoot a WW1/WW2-era pistol find one that's already mismatched and has little collector's value. Let the collectors have the ones with original finish and all-matching parts. They all shoot the same anyway, and if your mixmaster breaks something it's no big deal to repair it and keep shooting. ....
That's like advising me to get laid with an inflatable dummy.

M
 

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It was the phenomenal accuracy of my P-38s that caused me to build one out of a steel WWII frame that I have carried on occasion as my CCW pistol.
I agree here is my hybrid or Franken P-1 that is in my carry rotation too and target after I shot it the first time. It no longer has a sleeved barrel but a spare Mauser barrel I had.
 

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I am a reloader and in that I would like to believe that the P1 (aluminum framed) pistol can handle the CIP standard load pressures which are higher than the SAAMI Load pressures. The Post WWII German Army used this pistol from 1963, so I have to believe they had no issues concerning the CIP European elevated pressures which exceed American SAAMi +P by 12%. If there was a weak part of the pistol it would be the aluminum frame - but i know of no frame issues. So my conclusion is that even though the P1 has been improved with the P5, still the old P1 is save and reliable for any standard load that exists.

Question: Does anyone know the standard WWII load data
Question: Is there currently any improved 2nd source sights for the P1 / P38?
Question: Would anyone argue against the 7.5gn HS-6 maximum load listed by Speer for their 115gn Goild-Dot bullet?

9x19mm Luger for Walther P1 pistol with 125mm barrel:
CIP International Std 39200 psi (112%)
SAAMI (+P) 38500 psi (110%)
SAAMI Std 35000 psi (100%)
Note PSI = (1.51586 x CUP) - 17902 or CUP = (psi + 17902) / 1.51586
Hodgdon data indicates that 7.0gn HS-6 generates 29,400 CUP or 26,664 psi (76% of SAAMI Std or 68% of CIP European Standard.

Currently I am loading 7.5gn Hodgon HS-6 powder for personal defense with the 115gn Speer PN 26314 Gold Dot and CCI-500 pistol primers. I calculate the muzzle velocity to be approximately 1246 ft/sec (Muzzle Energy 396.4 ft-lbs = 115x1246^2/450436) or +4.6% over std 4"barrel velocities. This load is a real man-stopper.
(ref https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd_lymLzl6a)
The 115gn Gold Dot is favored by many Law Enforcement agencies.

I zero my P1 at 55 yards (50 meters) to achieve -6.1" at 100 yds which is in agreement with the 50 meter front sight height selection used for the Walther P1. I have had no problems with reliability or feeding.
 

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Gee47 makes some valid points. The issue is not pressure; the P1 is plenty safe with CIP standard load ammo. The problems arose when the early lighter slide was used with hotter police ammo, which led to a rash of slide cracking, corrected by the introduction of the heavier "fat" slide which made its lock-up stronger and also slowed its velocity to reduce peening and battering.

The steel hex bolt in the frame is simply a hardened cam surface for locking and unlocking; pressure does not have much effect on it, and slide velocity probably doesn't either. Frames without the hex bolt become unserviceable mostly through simple wear, and owners can substantially ameliorate the abrasion by keeping those surfaces clean and well lubricated.

M
 

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Very interesting. I would like to get a P1 and reload for it. Some have told me the top cover can easily separate even with low pressure loads. Is there a way to prevent this?

I have always been attracted to the P1/P38 design. I had a nice P1 but sold it to finance another gun purchase as I was told it would not hold up to much shooting. Big mistake.
 

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Discussion Starter #58
The pistols seem to do OK with Winchester white box, though some find it a bit dirty. I'd get one, load it up, and shoot it to your heart's content. The chances are good that it will work for you. Find one with a hex bolt and fat slide if you can; plenty enough of them around.

And if, for some reason, the top cover blows off, you can always try duct tape. It works for everything else. :)
 

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The top cover stays on just fine when properly assembled. But there are a lot of people who take their instructions from youtube.

M
 

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This gets more interesting right along. If, as a previous poster indicated, Walther P1 pistols are manufactured to European CIP standards, then I would ask if our new Walthers, presumably made to the same standard, could then handle +p and NATO pressure ammo?

I will move this discussion to the PPQ and PPX parts of the forum.
 
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