A soft roll trigger would be grand for the P22

1273 Views 14 Replies 3 Participants Last post by Crete, Oct 22, 2018

Crete

Discussion Starter · Oct 12, 2018

The FAS match pistol has a true roll off trigger.

That is: a small travel after the second stage weight point, but as the sears lets off there was a small amount of roll off the sear.

Those in the know say that the sear in the FAS hasn't a sharp angle corner but had a slight curve on it.

This gave the feeling of a slight drop in trigger pressure as the hammer spring pressure helped to push off the trigger sear, giving a soft feel trigger release.

Other soft feel trigger models are the S&W 52 and the SIG P210 and P240.
These pistols appear that the triggers will not lift the weight and let the hammer strike, but the do.

They are not like a creepy trigger, which is just a rough sear travel, either first or second stage, but give a soft trigger feel that help enormously with releasing the shot properly.

I wonder if the Walther P22 can be modified to a soft roll trigger.

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1917-1911M

· #2 · Oct 13, 2018

The P22 has an almost M1911 straight back trigger bar that engages the sear. So the pressure from the trigger/trigger bar is straight back. No offset outside of the frame trigger bar. My sear undercutting and reworked engagement angle, lowered hammer hook and undercut sear has absolutely no creep. I wouldn't say it has any roll either. The hammer is simply released with 2.25'b of pull. Some of these target pistols have some intricate adjustments, geometry and every advantage the engineers can think of. The trigger assembly probably costs more than a new P22.

Got any technical design concepts or other details for these triggers. One of the latests for M1911s is a tru radius sear cut. The sear and hammer hook is straight forward on a P22......what can be done and will it be safe is another issue. The QD pistol has had the hammer hook lowered to about as low as it can go. 1/2 the height of the originals. I think this was necessary in order for the decocking lever to work. Just my guess...but lowering the hook makes for a better trigger. It still seems to be a pretty positive engagement though.

More specs on the technical layout of the rolling trigger please. I'm going hiking this morning. 1917

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Crete

Discussion Starter · #3 · Oct 14, 2018

Thanks 1917-1911M,

There is very little available. It could be a Patent issue or it's just a fine dark art adjusting a trigger to roll softly, like this one:

https://www.facebook.com/344730025561939/videos/1938802172821375/

As soon as something comes up it will posted here.

1917-1911M

· #4 · Oct 15, 2018

Went hiking yesterday, got lost and walked a bit far. At least the food and wine were good. 1917

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MGMike

· #5 · Oct 16, 2018

1917-1911M said:
.../;

Went hiking yesterday, got lost and walked a bit far. At least the food and wine were good. 1917

Mykonos?

M

Reactions: 1

MGMike

· #6 · Oct 16, 2018

Crete said:
As soon as something comes up it will posted here.

It came up decades ago. It was called a Kalashnikov.

M

Crete

Discussion Starter · #7 · Oct 17, 2018

MGMike said:
It came up decades ago. It was called a Kalashnikov.

M

With a soft roll trigger break?

MGMike

· #8 · Oct 18, 2018

Crete said:
With a soft roll trigger break?

Mine does. Doesn't yours?

Lipon....

M

Crete

Discussion Starter · #9 · Oct 20, 2018

No idea.

Never shot one.

I only know that the FAS 607, SIG P210 & P240 and the Smith & Wesson Model 52 pistols have factory soft roll triggers. Most gunsmiths can make the conversion. The Pardini SP can also be set up with a soft roll break.

My Feinwerkbau Mod. 2 CO2 match air pistol allows the trigger point to be left loose, so as to have a clean break of the trigger and then a bit of soft backward movement before the trigger blade stops moving. It is a wonderful feeling as it is always the same, unlike a creep that goes on and on, or it doesn't. The soft roll is inherently suitable for precision handgun shooting, offhand.

It's interesting to find out which rifles have those soft roll triggers, also.

1917-1911M

· #10 · Oct 21, 2018

You have a hammer and sear with what should be just over a 2 lb trigger. We will make no mention of where you obtained it. That hammer has the hooks lowered as I recall, the angle of engagement between the sear which has also so had the amount of metal on the face reduced to a minimum is barely positive. This should give a trigger with no creep, no felt movement of the sear sliding up the hammer hook, simply such a short travel distance that once the trigger moves the hammer is released. And at 2 lbs....pull isn't very heavy either.

If I'm understanding what you are saying regarding a roll trigger and one that doesn't continue to press the hammer rearward....a neutral engagement does this. A positive engagement causes the sear to ride up the hook pressing the hammer rearward a bit as it rises. A neutral engagement would have the sear slide up the hook with no movement of the hammer. A positive or neutral engagement transitioning to a negative one would not be safe in my opinion. If I'm understanding you, the sear is moving across the hammer hook and transitions into an angle that begins to lower the hammer before releasing it. I am not familiar with anyone designing an engagement like that.

It would be possible to change the geometry of trigger components to increase leverage of the sear roll against the hammer as the trigger is pulled but that seems like something either the manufacturer has to create or be installed with an aftermarket trigger group. Or perhaps I don't understand exactly what a roll trigger is. On a target pistol I don't find it necessary to feel the sear sliding across the hook regardless of how smooth. 1917

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1917-1911M

· #11 · Oct 21, 2018

MGMike said:
Mykonos?

M

Nah, photo of a photo hanging on the wall at a local junk store. Somewhere in Crete. Crete might recognize it.

The name was on a sticker on the bottom of the frame but I cropped that all out. Not sure where in Crete this was....Mykonos sounds good to me. 1917

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Crete

Discussion Starter · #12 · Oct 21, 2018

Kimber America Roll Trigger example

I have received a vid on FB, but I am not sure if you can watch it.

It shows how said trigger breaks. The link is here:

https://www.facebook.com/344730025561939/videos/1938802172821375/

The model is a 1911 Kimber America.

1917-1911M

· #13 · Oct 21, 2018

I saw that earlier but can't tell anything by watching it. From the description of "roll trigger" is see a tiny roller on the end of the sear that rolls up the face of the hook until releasing the hammer....but, I know that isn't it. It is the feel of the trigger....can feel be shown in a video? It seems a near neutral engagement would give the same feel. If the P22 had a heavier hammer perhaps the spring could be weaker and not press the hammer against the sear with as much pressure......or, perhaps if the lower legs of the sear were longer to give move leverage to the trigger bar. I haven't had a really good look at how the trigger bar legs engage the sear as they rotate it to see if any improvement could be made there.. Perhaps there is room for improvement, or not. 1917

1917-1911M

· #14 · Oct 22, 2018

So a roll trigger is one where when all the slack has been taken out of the trigger pre travel....the sear just seems to roll up the hook without any felt slippage, jumps, notchiness, etc. as opposed to a trigger when no movement of the sear can be felt because it moves very little before releasing the hammer....a quick break so to speak. Is there more control of the pistol with a roll trigger? 1917

Reactions: 1

Crete

Discussion Starter · #15 · Oct 22, 2018 (Edited)

Yes, there is.

It is the quick break that makes all the difference.

The Italian .22 cal LR FAS Model 607 that I have extensively shot (three different examples), has this outstanding soft roll quick break feature that allows the shot to happen before the brain gets notice and seizes up the wrist muscles, sending the shot awry.

There are is nothing "rolling" about it. I am not sure why it is called that, but it is soft and the shot is gone before you know it, which is what I really-really like in a match hand gun.

EDIT to add this quote, which describes the 'feel': "One kind of trigger job that you never see anymore (because it's REALLY HARD to do) is the old-timer's bullseye trigger job for the 1911. I've felt one of these done right, it's really nice... it's one constant pull weight from front to back, with a totally unpredictatable break somewhere in between if you pull it gradually. Done right, it defines smooth... there is literally no difference between the break weight and the take-up weight. I have -no clue how to do one of these trigger jobs." SOURCE: https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=56056

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