Walther Forums banner

1 - 17 of 17 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
OK, heres the deal. I am posting this in the hopes that everyone can be mature and not spout off at the mouth about how they themselves are a badass and only worry about things such as shot placement and skill. Of course shot placement is important but why not tip the scale in your favor some more by useing the best bullets available for the everyday encounter. Same goes to you know-it-alls about .45 ACP being the only round for self defense. This topic is about 9MM so if you want to make yourself sound cool over the internet by bashing 9MM and the different kinds of JHP then please do so someplace else.

Ok, having said that, I want to bring up a few subjects. First, stopping power is measured in joules, or footpounds. Theoretically, 350 footpounds means that a bullet striking 350 pounds of (steel or somthing that will stop the bullet immediately) will have enough force to send said objects 12'' in the air. While larger calibers may have more stopping power because they are larger, the key is to get the bullet to stop dead in its tracks to transfer the total energy into an object.

then other things come into play, like penetration. You got have penetration. But stopping power and penetration go hand in hand. Heres why, anything going over 1200 fps weighing 115-147 grains will penetrate. The question is how much?

I have been testing different types of ammo, 115-124 grain.
gold dots, golden sabres, some plain old winchester whitebox JHP. and also some corbon +p. before i post what i have found and how i found it, I would like to hear everyones opinions as to

1) which bullet/grain penetrates the most while mushrooming

2) which bullet/grain penetrates the least while mushrooming

3) is 115 better than 124 grain? 115 may be faster but its lighter so does it mean that it will be easier to stop?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,557 Posts
This should be a good thread...the guys on this board are more civil than on others that I visit...Sniper should provide some valuable insight...take a look at this link....

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=543631

http://www.greent.com/40Page/general/defammo.htm

<a href="http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?
s=&threadid=507875" target="_blank">http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=507875</a>

I would ask you what are you shooting into? The medium makes a difference...water, gelatin, phone books, sand, drywall...?

This one is fun too...
http://www.theboxotruth.com/

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot23.htm


I would also add that you must keep in mind that we live in a very active consumer driven market...that goes without saying. This has its pro's and con's. As shooters we want the best bang for our buck so the market drives research. This is a good thing. But as has been said, why reinvent the wheel. I think that alot of the ammo being put out is just for pure marketing. If you read enough threads you will see certain types of ammo that always seem to rise to the top. Sooner or later you will know which are the "best" and which are purely market fillers...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
328 Posts
This should be very interesting.
While I have no real data to back it up I do have a personal preferance.
I prefer a medium weight bullet in standard service length barrels.
In short barrels I prefer light and fast bullets.

As for brand, I feel almost any of the newest hollowpoint designs should be decent.

my preferances are as follows
9mm 4" barrel lengths....124 grain
9mm 3" or shorter 115 grain

40 cal 4" barrel 155-165 grain
40 cal 3" or shorter 135-155 grain

45 cal 4/14"-5" barrel 230 grain
45 cal 3"-3 1/2" barrel 185-200 grain

again nothing to really back it up but I feel that maximum available velocity is a good thing.

In my 4" duty/off duty 40 cal weapon I carry 165 grain Winchester SXT. I don't really like the slower 180 grain bullets
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
333 Posts
Your questions are good ones........but why re-invent the wheel. The answer to your questions can be found below in as much detail as you want to read and learn:

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin....um;f=78

[Watch the line wrap ] Look for posts by DocGKR

The answers you will find on the above site are developed by experts in the field of "Terminal Ballistics" . Some of the scientists that post there are world renoun. All of the data is up to date as Testing goes on all the time by these people. You will get an un biased opinion on which ammo can do the job and which is more Hype.

A couple of points I can make:

Penetration: One of the most important aspects of terminal ballistics ..........if the bullet can't reach vital organs shooting at angles....then it is not much good. 12" is considered a benchmark.

Performance through clothing: Another ammo stopper........ if the bullet design can't function while penetrating clothing then again it isn't much good. Denim used to be a bullet killer, but manufacturers have solved that mystery.......and now hollow points will expand reliably going through this stuff.

Don't be fooled by a manufacturer ....... some bullet weights made by a company will perform well......others by the same company will fail horribly.

I could go on and on for pages.......but like I said why re-invent the wheel .............. the above site will provide you with everything you could possibly want to know about current ammo.

JF.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
525 Posts
[b said:
Quote[/b] ] First, stopping power is measured in joules, or footpounds
I would disagree and say that stopping power is a myth and certainly nothing measureable.  The assessment of foot pounds meaning someone is going to go flying through the air is also an incorrect application.
I would actually encourage everyone wanting to use a handgun for self defense to read this http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
What i meant by my statement soybomb was that stopping power is measured in footpound or joules. Thats it nothing more. I also go into detail in explaining that if you hit a solid object that were able to stop the bullet dead in its tracks then theoretically, the amount of force would be able to push the object a foot in the air. example, 1200 fps fmj strikes target and stops dead in its tracks and causes 250 footpounds of pressure, all that means is that bullet creates enought force to push 250 pounds into the air. A person wont be able to stop a bullet dead in its tracks. Theres a difference in stopping inside a person and stopping on contact.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
525 Posts
And really my point is that stopping power is nothing measureable or constant, and certainly not related to energy transfers. The holes are what we care about, not the kinetic energy of the round in flight.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Stopping Power= calculated energy output on point of impact on a solid object. There is actually a formula to calculate the stopping power of a projectile.

Now, having said that, one must realize that this can not be related to a human target becuase a body comprising of mostly water will not be able to stop a round fired up close dead in its tracks. So let me clarify this, lets say a bullet had 400 footpounds of energy, this does not mean it can knock a 160 lb person over and send them into the air. What it means is that the round generates 400 pounds of force when striking a solid object. Again a human body cant stop the 9mm at 10 feet on impact.

The term footpounds means that it takes X amount of energy to move X amount of pounds a foot into the air. So really you have think more along the lines of the term being used to describe a relationship between velocity and mass, and not what it would do to a person because it puts out 400 pounds of energy.

Think of it this way, a punch to the face that generates 200 lbs of pressure or a push that generates a total of 200 pounds of pressure. Both generate the same amount of total force but one does more damage. The faster you get a bullet to stop when hitting someone the more the "STOPPING POWER." However in doing this you have to sacrifice penetration. So all in all what i am trying to say is that the term stopping power has nothing to do with what will happen to a human body, Im not trying to argue with anyone but it seems that I am being misunderstood. And stopping power the term "STOPPING POWER" can be measured/calculated because it is nothing more than how much energy the round traveling x amount of speed with x amound of weight (grains) generates upon stopping instantly.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
471 Posts
111, 111, 111 x 111, 111, 111 = 12,345,678,987,654,321;
An ostrich's eye is bigger than its brain.
and,
Carnivorous animals will not eat another animal that has been hit by a lightning strike.
Further more,
Armadillo's have four babies at a time and they are always all the same sex.
Reindeer's like to eat bananas.
And,
studies show that if a cat falls off the 7th floor of a building, it has about 30% less chance of surviving than a cat that falls off the 20th floor.  It supposedly takes about 8 floors for the cat to realize what is occurring, relax and correct itself.

What does all of this empirical data mean? It's all derived from experiment and observation rather than theory...
Stopping Power is theory, you can not predict exactly how a bullet will stop the human body. The body, it's motion, the shape it's in, the attitude of it's owner, etc... and the bullet placement/trajectory are some of the variables...
ft.lbs./sq.in. of the bullet and it's expansion rate are more known and can be more of a constant, but ultimately it means Nada, zip, zero, zilch about how well a given bullet will perform. There are simply more variables than constants!
Ideally you want the bullet to expend all it's energy with in the body... Not in the wall behind the subject...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
LoL once again, when did i say anything about stopping power putting a target down? I actually go to great lengths in the previous posts to tell people that stopping power (which is just a term used to describe a bullets generated energy upon impact of a solid object) has nothing to do with what will happen to a person upon impact. Please, before you post some sarcastic comment just remember that this post is about the 9mm bullet and its different grains and bullets. The object with anything else is to take useful information and use it accordingly.

By the way, can a cat survive a fall from 20 stories?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,201 Posts
The more I read about the stopping power of various handgun calibers, the more I'm reminded of Clint Smith's words: "A handgun is only for getting to your rifle"

That being said, for 9mm I like using the 147 gr bullets. More weight = more energy, which usually leads to better penetration. There are so many factors that determine wether or not a hollow point will expand or not or how deeap a bullet will travel. Then there's the victim of said bullets. Is he on Meth? Is he a soldier or just down right mean? I've seen reports of people being shot point blank in the chest with the supposedly great .45acp and also shot multiple times and live to tell the tale.

So for me, I usually choose the heaviest bullet possible for the caliber, that may or may not have a proven record on the street. For 9mm, as I've said earlier, I like the 147 gr bullets. Any type.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
525 Posts
Just for your future sanity (*ahem*) most people who say stopping power when discussing firearms use it as a means to quantify the likelyhood that a round will stop an attacker.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stopping_power is what people will assume you're talking about.

I have no idea what the rest of the jive you're trying to do with the kinetic energy of the round is but as long as it works for you


[b said:
Quote[/b] ](which is just a term used to describe a bullets generated energy upon impact of a solid object)
The bullet will never generate any energy (not that it ever does create energy ever) once it leaves the barrel.  That is the absolute most energy it will ever possess to be more accurate.  And it doesn't even really matter how much energy it has at the muzzle in handguns anyway.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
471 Posts
My favorite round for the 9mm is the Winchester Ranger RA9T. The 147 grain SXT...

Sorry for the previous sarcasim...
I was just having a little fun... Lighten up, will ya?


Yes, cats are amazing animals!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
471 Posts
For my Winchester Ranger ammo, I buy it from Jerry Kirkpatrick [email protected]. He's very prompt and reasonable... I usually buy 500 rounds at a time...

My favorite holster for IWB carry is by Comp-Tec. The model I have is the Pro Undercover... They are thin, tough, fast and reasonably priced. I got mine in about 4 days from an online order...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,201 Posts
[b said:
Quote[/b] (007uses_it_y_not_us @ May 26 2006,12:59)]is there any places to buy ammo online?

and what do you guys think is the best concealed holster
I buy ammo online from the outdoormarksman.com

I like nice leather for IWB holsters and you can't beat Milt Sparks.

OWB I like Kydex.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,557 Posts
I like One Gun, one holster, one ammo. I shoot only P99's and use a Fobus paddle holster and mag holders. I use them for CCW or when I shoot USPSA. Wear them in the same place no matter what I am doing...well except in the shower...I have a nice Galco that is my "show" holster otherwise I stick with one style that has already proven to me that it works. As per ammo, I like Speer Gold Dot 9mm Luger +P 124 GDHP

Velocity(in feet per second)
Muzzle:1220 50 yards:1085 100 yards:996

Energy (in foot pounds)
Muzzle:410 50 yards:324 100 yards:273

As per plinking I reload my own but sometime I use 115 gr FMJ WWB from Wally World or I use Brown Bear 147 gr JHP. Go figure but I really like the Brown Bear...shoots good in my KI 99...
 
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
Top