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Does anyone have experience shooting either of these rounds in the PPQ 45 or other 45 pistol model? My research thus far including discussions with Double Tap and Buffalo Bore as well as articles and videos make them sound interesting because it could provide a pistol that will handle the standard 45acp ammo and something that could be carried for large animal defense.

Sorry, I meant the 450smc.
 

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Does anyone have experience shooting either of these rounds in the PPQ 45 or other 45 pistol model? My research thus far including discussions with Double Tap and Buffalo Bore as well as articles and videos make them sound interesting because it could provide a pistol that will handle the standard 45acp ammo and something that could be carried for large animal defense.

Sorry, I meant the 450smc.

Don't own any Walthers in 45acp, but I have fired both out of my Mark 23. Ate it up without a hiccup. Recoil is a bit spicier and sharper, but not bad. I fired 45 super out of my USP45C once, SEEMED to handle it fine, but the guys at HKpro seem to walk cautiously regarding this.
 

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You will want to get the S-S Guiderods unit, and a beefy WC spring (#20~#22 lbs).


IIRC, Ol'F ordered his sans locktite.


I was able to break mine loose to install the stiffer spring.


I hate my guns slamming to the rear and launching brass ~30ft away.
 

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Does anyone have experience shooting either of these rounds in the PPQ 45 or other 45 pistol model? My research thus far including discussions with Double Tap and Buffalo Bore as well as articles and videos make them sound interesting because it could provide a pistol that will handle the standard 45acp ammo and something that could be carried for large animal defense.

Sorry, I meant the 450smc.
In most handgun applications, the 450 SMC requires a heavier duty recoil spring. If one is not available, then at the very least the factory recoil spring needs to be changed much more frequently. When I first developed the 450 SMC, the only stock factory pistol that could handle it with no mods was the HK Mk23 pistol. In fact, we supplied Naval Surface Warfare with .45 Super in 185 and 200 grain loadings. The only difference between the .45 Super and 450 SMC is the small primer pocket in the 450 SMC. While that seems like a minor thing, it really helped us reduce primer flow. We ran small rifle primers and they worked great.

Getting back to the PPQ 45, I plan on running some 450 SMC through one to see how it does. Will also speak to the folks at Walther about it. I think that would be a winning combo.

Fernando Coelho
 

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Discussion Starter #7
In most handgun applications, the 450 SMC requires a heavier duty recoil spring. If one is not available, then at the very least the factory recoil spring needs to be changed much more frequently. When I first developed the 450 SMC, the only stock factory pistol that could handle it with no mods was the HK Mk23 pistol. In fact, we supplied Naval Surface Warfare with .45 Super in 185 and 200 grain loadings. The only difference between the .45 Super and 450 SMC is the small primer pocket in the 450 SMC. While that seems like a minor thing, it really helped us reduce primer flow. We ran small rifle primers and they worked great.

Getting back to the PPQ 45, I plan on running some 450 SMC through one to see how it does. Will also speak to the folks at Walther about it. I think that would be a winning combo.

Fernando Coelho

I see you are with Panteao Productions now....where were you when the 45smc was developed?

I contacted Double Tap re the 45smc's performance with the PPQ 45 and they stated the PPQ would handle the round since it is +P rated. The issue for me is that the PPQ does not have a fully supported chamber like the HK45 and I believe the factory 18lb RSA is a bit too light. To be certain the increased pressure of just under 30,000psi is too much without swapping the barrel for something like a Jarvis barrel and a heavier RSA which the DPM recoil reduction system provides (max at 26-28lb).
 

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I was with Triton Cartridge when we produced the first factory loaded .45 Super ammunition and then shortly after that, I created the 450 SMC. One of the biggest issues I saw was primer flow with the large pistol primer of the .45 Super case. The small rifle primer took care of that problem.

Contrary to what you have been told, just because a pistol is rated for .45 ACP+P ammunition does not mean it can handle the 450 SMC. At least not a steady diet of it. The rate of slide travel is greater with the 450 SMC than .45 ACP +P ammo. We were dealing with that problem with every .45 ACP pistol of the day, which included the various 1911s, SIG P220, S&W 4506, Glock 21 and HK USP. Except for the HK Mk 23, we always had to increase the recoil spring rate in order to tame the .45 Super and 450 SMC. If not, we ran the risk of damaging the pistol or at the very least, running into feeding and ejection malfunctions.

The lack of a fully supported chamber is not the issue with the 450 SMC. The case wall is thick enough to cope with a chamber that does not include a full ramp. The Glock 21 was famous for offering less support than what you would normally want to see, and it handled the 450 SMC fine. The recoil spring rate has always been the key with the .45 Super/450 SMC. With the 1911 we would run spring rates up to 28-32 lbs while also incorporating a squared off firing pin stop and heavy duty firing pin spring. The downside with going that high with the recoil spring is while you are taming the slide’s rearward travel, you are sending it forward pretty hard. Especially when you lock the slide back and then hit the slide release. Good way to have a 1911 fall to half cock. When Springfield Armory offered a factory .45 Super 1911, they utilized a 22 lb recoil spring if I recall correctly. In my various 5-inch 1911s, I ran a 22 lb recoil spring. Same thing when I later developed the .40 Super cartridge.

Hope that info is of help.

Fernando
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Contrary to what you have been told, just because a pistol is rated for .45 ACP+P ammunition does not mean it can handle the 450 SMC. At least not a steady diet of it. The rate of slide travel is greater with the 450 SMC than .45 ACP +P ammo. We were dealing with that problem with every .45 ACP pistol of the day, which included the various 1911s, SIG P220, S&W 4506, Glock 21 and HK USP. Except for the HK Mk 23, we always had to increase the recoil spring rate in order to tame the .45 Super and 450 SMC. If not, we ran the risk of damaging the pistol or at the very least, running into feeding and ejection malfunctions.
Fernando

Yes, that's great info both from a historical view as well as the technical specs. The supported chamber/ramp is a simple matter of my conservative nature.

Have a question for you. Would it be possible to push the 450 to 460 Rowland levels by employing the supported barrel with the heavier RSA?
 

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Believe me, I am a huge fan of a fully supported chamber. Unfortunately, with the .45 ACP chambering and the anemic pressure levels of that cartridge, an unsupported chamber became the norm.

When we were working on the load development for the 450 SMC, we realized that while greater velocities were able to be achieved than what we were offering, they came at a greater amount of recoil. We were also limited with the amount of powder choices to achieve those higher velocities without turning the cartridge into a flame thrower. We tried to utilize powders with flash inhibitors whenever possible.

We actually pushed velocities much higher with the .40 Super but we were dealing with .40 caliber bullets in the 135 to 200 grain range. Recoil was not as fierce. Heck, even though we offered a 135 grain JHP at 1800 fps, I had achieved 2,000 fps from a S&W 4506. But then I was concerned that reloaders would try to push the envelope beyond that and hurt themselves. Thus the reduced factory loading.

Getting back to the 450 SMC, my answer to making it more manageable in recoil was our 165 grain Quik-Shok and 165 grain Hi-Vel. At 1450 fps from a 5-inch barrel, the 165 grain was a real thumper on gelatin. I would not recommend pushing the velocity greater than what is currently factory loaded.
 
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