[JBA]

Hi guys.
Does the DA to SA trigger pull bother you, and if so how and where?
I'm no world class shooter by any means, But the only time decent DA trigger cause me any problems is when shooting something like Bullseye shooing or shooting for accuracy groups.
But in shooting like the P99 was designed for, defensive or combat shooting. I just don't seem to have a problem with the DA first trigger pull. Especially when drawing an shooting. I mean, with the excitement, the adrinlin, target focus, quickness of the draw getting on target and the shots on it's way.
I've tried drawing and shooting both DA and SA first shots and from looking at the shot targets, I couldn't tell ya which was shot DA and which was SA.
I mean even with the Glock you really got 2 different trigger feels. There the full tigger pull like yu get from a trigger all the way released and the the short trigger pull you get from the trigger reset position.
Now I do see the difference with a long heavy revolver DA trigger, but can't on is P99. How about you guys? JB

 

[Albert Shear]

I am not sure I understand what you mean about the Glock trigger. It is the same for every shot. The striker is held about 1/3 to the rear. Pulling the trigger carries the striker rearward to full cock then releases it. The rebounding slide resets the striker to the 1/3 level. As to the different triggers on the 99 I, like you, find no difference in presentation and firing from double action or single. The action itself is so smooth I can not tell which is better in my hands.

 

[NM_P99]

Quote[/b] (Albert Shear @ July 07 2003,2:11)]I am not sure I understand what you mean about the Glock trigger. It is the same for every shot.

Not if you only release the trigger to the reset point. Then the trigger travel is considerably lessened.

 

[Johnny Rad]

I much prefer the lighter SA trigger at the range over the longer, heavier DA. Even so, I make sure to practice shooting with both. Just makes sense to me that way. I wanted a H&K USPc (ok, still do...), but when I rented one I found its trigger odd in comparison. Cocked and locked certainly sets up the SA trigger on the H&K, but I decided that I prefer the Walther's cocked and trigger forward DA for carry.

 

[Albert Shear]

NM_P99. Quote,
"Not if you only release the trigger to the reset point. Then the trigger travel is considerably lessened. "

I was not aware this was a safe practice. Neither I nor anyone I shoot with has ever done this on a Glock. While the P99 is designed with this in mind the Glock is not. That is why there are different weights of connectors, anywhere from 3.5lbs to 12lbs. I would caution against this.
Albert

 

[NM_P99]

Albert, are you aware of what is meant by only letting the trigger out to the reset point? Maybe we are on different pages. This is a very common trigger technique with nearly all semi-automatic pistols, Glocks included.
Here is the trigger technique 101 page from the Glock FAQ site. Glock FAQ, Trigger 101
This technique is also taught by many different professional instructors, including James Yeager of OPS, who is a die-hard Glock shooter.

 

[Albert Shear]

I apologize profusely sir!! I indeed was thinking of something entirely different. After a good swift kick I now understand the point you were trying to make.

 

[NM_P99]

I thought that maybe we were on two different subjects.

 

[JBA]

The reason I asked this question is I've heard it a ton of times over the yrs from 1911, Hi Power, Glock shooters. I had a Glock shooting friend that shot mine and after a couple mags, he was shooting it as good as his glock. His only coplaint, yea it's nice, but I like the one trigger pull... Even shooters here with the QA trigger system.
And with this P99 smooth med weight DA trigger, I havn't found it to affect my first shots when there's any kind of excitement, presure or speed involved in the shot.
Now I did have a Sig 228 with a very very long and heavy DA trigger pull, and with the SA I did shoot it better.
But maybe it's the smoothness and the med weight and the pistols natural pointing for me, that gives me fast accurate first shots.
Anyways I like it.....

 

[HadEmAll]

On S&W and SIG DA/SA pistols, I pull the first shot (DA) low about 80% of the time despite my best efforts. On Berettas and especially on the P99, I don't have that problem. Something about the geometry of the grip and smoothness of the trigger. It's just not an issue with my P99.

 

[BreakerMorant]

Like many things, it's a personal preference issue. People can train to handle both the DA and SA triggers. (They've done it for generations) With practice they can transition smoothly between the two actions without dropping the first shot. However, I believe it is better to have the same trigger pull each and every time.

The difference in trigger pull weight and travel is very noticeable between DA & SA. I went with the QA specifically to avoid this. As previously mentioned, it is a personal preference.

I learned to shoot on a Beretta 92 and transitioned to a Glock 17. I was impressed by three things with the Glock: (1) The ease of its takedown (2) its durability and (3) the fact that each trigger pull was identical. When I looked at the basic P99, it appeared to have two out of the three. I wasn't quite sure of what to make of the DAO and the QA. I was willing to go with the DAO since its trigger pull was the same every time, but I was not impressed with it being a DA semi-auto. I went with the QA because its trigger was the closest, of the P99 variants, to the Glock trigger.

I think the reality is, people who have the QA variant are individuals where transitioning between the trigger pulls was an issue for them or their department. Those who own the basic P99 have acclimated to the DA/SA. In the alternative, there are those who simply don't shoot enough to notice or care.

-The issue is really like people who hate guns with polymer frame. Some people will never trust them. They don't like the feel. They don't like how the weight is distributed between the heavy metal slide and light polymer frame. They don't trust that they are durable. Other people rapidly accept the polymer frame and hail it as a great step forward. They love that it is lighter. They don't perceive the weight distribution to impact on "felt recoil." They believe it is more durable and will cite studies showing that frames do neeed to flex and polymer frames do that better than pistols with metal frames. If you ask which people prefer, you'll get the same die-hards on each side restating the same reasons. While people may respect a person who is arguing the converse of their opinion, they will choose according to their own preferences and needs.

For me, I believe the QA is an improvement over the basic P99 model because it has one trigger pull. I have taught several friends to shoot with it, after priming them with revolvers. Invariably, they do much better with a pistol where there is no transition between DA/SA. -Although they can work through it, I view the difficulty of that transition as a drawback to the DA/SA system. Of course, your mileage may vary...

 

[HadEmAll]

The standard P99 can be safely carried and fired "SA/SA". I don't do it because I find the DA very smooth, but since I've never seen the QA, I guess I'd have to say I can't see what improvement over the standard model it would have for a savvy user, except if you're talking about equipping a law enforcement agency with them. Then you can't assume all users would be gun savvy, and I realize the "SA/SA" theme would never fly because of safety/liability concerns.

 

[JBA]

Ok while I agree it's a personal choice. There are some things you lose too with the QA system. You lose second strike capability, with todays ammo that might not be much, but you don't have. And second, if for some crazy reason your pistol is decocked accidentally. the pistol is disabled till you rack the slide. Yes these are small, but Mr Murphy makes mole hills into Mountains at the worst possible times.
Now I may not be as good or shot as much as you. I do load an shoot about 6-8000 pistol rnds a yr and I started shooting back when all you seen were revolvers , 1911s and once in a while a hi power. So Im not exactly a rookie.

But I find your training of new students questionable. Did you take them from revolvers to DA/SA P99s or your berretta, or a sig or what ever. I ask cause I shoot the p99 better than either or these also. They have noticeable bad DA triggers, the P99 does not.
Now you went from a DAO P99 to a QA P99 and love the QA. That's understandable. But with the P99 were just talking about 1 that's one shot double action, not the mag full. So the question should be do you really make that much better first shot with the QA than you do with the DA first shot. Cause after the first shot the pistols should shoot the same.
And this is a defensive pistol. So the test should be done with some type of timeing and competion to get the pump pumping and from a holster.. I have shot my P99 DA/SA in stages and shot the same stages in SA. I have found no difference in my shooting. I have also done some one shot drills from holster and just first shot. And after shooting a couple dozen , 1 shot draw and shoot targets in both DA and SA. You really can't tell which ones were shot which way.
Like I said, if your takeing time and really aimed shots, yes the first SA shot should be better over all. How much better is questionable. But if I got time I can walk over to the bench and get the match grade 1911 and out shoot both P99s.
It would be very interestion to see you take the SA DA first shot test and see what kind of difference if any you get.
Also one other point to digest. I've done this test with a Sig 226 and a Berretta and yes I can tell the DA shoot from the SA shots. and my time with both pistols was considerable slower. Mainly cause the fit and natural point of the P99 for me is super.
Try it and let us know your results. JB

 

[Kowboy]

JBA, you are correct, you DO lose 2nd strike abilities...however, the slide does not need to be racked back completely...only about 1/8" to reset.

 

[kearsage]

I have shot both the standard P-99 and the QA in IDPA.  There only difference I find is that you have to make certain that your DA trigger pull is smooth or you may jerk the shot.  For me, the difference between the two models did not make a difference on my time.  There is only a negligible  difference between my time with a P-99 and a Glock 17, but I am much more accurate with the P-99.

 

[JBA]

Hi Kowboy. I am fully aware that the slide only has to be racked far enough to reset the trigger.
 But take the scene I mentioned above.  Bad times, the worst of times. You have to pull your weapon in self defense, your attacker is moveing, the clocks running and the adrenalin is pumping full, and pull the trigger and NOTHING, somehow somewhere Mr Murphy has done his ugly deed and decocked your P99QA.  
 So you rack the slide 1/4" to reset the triggers right!!!!  Because you've practiced this several hundred times and it's ingrained in your defense. Right.  Sorry I ain't buying it.
  Hopefully you've got the training and practice enough to ingrain a tap rack and flip clearence drill.  Because you should have practiced this several hundred times.  And Hopefully it is ingrained in your defense training.
 But either way your burning seconds.
 The 1/4" rack works great at the range an just causual shooting.  Try racking a 1/4" sometime in just match preasure, doubt you do it.  And remember this. if you rack alittle too far for the 1/4" reset but not a full rack, you could hang the rnd up in a stovepipe type jam.
 Now lets not forget, all you got to do with the DA/SA to go SA is rack the slide 1/4" too.  So the point is

 

 And all this is because of what ?  a slightly better,  if that, first shot.   And how much better first shot.  
 Now lets get in the real world.  Most defense is going to be in the 5 yd range.  So just how much better is your QA first shot than your first shot would have been with the P99 DA?

     And exactly how much work would it take for you to be able to draw an shoot first shot alphas at 5yds with the Walther P99DA??  And remember were talking a very good DA trigger.    
 
 And the last thought.  You pulled your pistol in defense and you are in a grapling struggle with the attacker.  Theres a good chance his hands are arround or moveing arround the top of the pistol, If he should decock it you now have a dead weapon.
I am wondering exactly how many of you QA owners thought of all these things BEFORE you bought your QA?

 

[JBA]

Hay guys don't take this personal. I am always looking for a better weapons system. That's why I bought the P99 in the first place cause it WAS a better weapon than my G19. Atleast in my openion it is. And If I get convenced the P99QA is a better weapon system than the P99 I will get me one of them. But so far I just can't see where the QA system is better.

 

[Kowboy]

To each his/her own.

 

[Compassman]

I think the P99 DA/SA was the reason I went with it. I love the ability to have it cocked and the trigger forward. That's what sold me on it.

I was involved with six teenagers who mistook me for my brothers baby-sitters new boyfriend! She was a freshmen in high school who had recently broke up with her senior boyfriend. She started to date a freshmen boy. This seamed to piss off the old boyfriend. After my brother and his wife and my girlfriend and I came back from a night out he asked me to take her home on my way home. I was driving her down her road (dead end) and pulled in to her short drive way, it was at the end of the dead end road. A car stopped across the top and 5 young men got out and started to run at my car with bats. Here is were Murphy's law breaks in. I had just sent out my carry gun for new combat sights! I was carrying an old revolver I had bought a few years before. Well, I stood 15 feet from the first kid.

Two kids ran into the woods. I had three at gun point and the one took off in the car. What felt like it took hours took roughly a minute. From the time I was grabbing her backpack from the back of my car to the point I had them on the ground and yelling for the baby-sitter to call the cops was no longer then a minute! The adrenaline was pumping and my hart was racing a mile a minute. My hands were sweating and I had a death grip on my pistol.

After the incident took place I went over what happened in my mind and how I should have act differently. I wrote down in detail everything that happened. I spoke with a few professionals and some agreed I did almost everything right. Nobody was shot and the incident was resolved. I also rethought my entire out look on my handgun decision. I soon realized it's confidants and assertiveness and the ability to pull the weapon and be ready to use it. I was willing to shoot if he did not stop in front of me. I stood 15 feet from him by the time I turned around and yelled for him to hit the ground. I was confident that if he did not stop I would have shot. I was also making sure that no body jump out of the wood from behind. I made it perfectly clear that if anybody jumps from behind I would shoot the kid on the ground in front of me first! There is a few more more finer details I left them out.

I was also on leave from the US MARINES

The weapon I had was a Smith and Wesson 3" .44 magnum. That later jammed up on me after 20 rounds.

I have been on a quest ever sense looking for the perfect weapon. That was many tears ago.

 

[KreeL]

It took me about 20 minutes to get used to the trigger on my P99 .40. It functions exactly as it was designed and for me it's perfect. At home on the bedstand there's one in the pipe, decocked. The same for when I carry it. At the range I enjoy the SA mode. Kudos to Walther for a great design!