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Thanks for the information. Yes, I need to e-mail Earl and ask if he can give me anything substantial that I can use if I am questioned about a normal capacity ( 15 round ) magazine here in NY. Also will ask if he has any left. I was hoping to avoid the high price and shipping on something that can be put in a USPS Priority mailer for under $5.00. I suppose if I want one bad enough I will have to just pay the price and be done with it.

ISOTOX, having dealt with Earl and having purchased these magazines can you offer a short version as to how I would go about convincing ( proving to ) a judicial officer in my state they are in fact "Pre Ban"
PM would work if you prefer not to get into it here.
Thanks,
DD
DD I have some correspondence from Earl. I will take a look for it and PM you with it. If I cannot find it I will stop by his shop this week. He speaks to how the P99 and the 16 rd. pre ban's came to be.....
 

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DD, If I understand you correctly, you can possess the 15 rd. P99 mag. in NY but not the 16 rd. Is that correct?

When I lived in NJ I had the same restrictions.

What you need is the Walther/Mec-Gar (with Mec-Gar symbol above) 9mm tube marked with the Walther banner, patent 5,386,657 which has 15 witness holes on the one side and 16 on the other.

You also need the correct 15 rd. spring so the mag will not hold 16 rds. Yes, they are referred to as "Turkish" P99 magazines.

The base plate will be marked with the Walther banner and P99.

These mags have black followers.

In the past, Earl could not or would not supply the proper springs for these mags.

Here are a couple of quick pohtos of 15 rd. and 16 rd. P99 mags.




Yes, those are additional 15 rd. mag springs the mags are resting on.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
DD I have some correspondence from Earl. I will take a look for it and PM you with it. If I cannot find it I will stop by his shop this week. He speaks to how the P99 and the 16 rd. pre ban's came to be.....
That would be great! Sure appreciate it. Thank you.
 

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Thank you very much for the photos. If the magazines in the photo are the ONLY way that a Pre Ban P99 Mag can exist then I am mistaken. I have found one magazine that I was told is a Pre Ban P99 magazine. It is identical to the ones in your photograph with one exception. On the left side it only has two witness holes marked 8 and 12. Other than that it is identical to yours. My research had led me to believe that the Pre Bans did in fact exist as a 16 round with different spring ( due to poor performance with the original 16 round spring) but also as a 15 round as well. Perhaps this is incorrect.
In NY anything over 10 rounds is a Felony to have possession of whether you insert them into the pistol or not, unless they are Pre Ban magazines.
Makes no difference if they are 15 or 16 round magazines. Either one needs to be Pre Ban to be legal.
 

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A letter from Earl explaining some of the mystery around pre-ban mags.


Dear Sir,
Prototype "P99" guns (originally they were supposed to be called
"HLP"-Hammer Less Pistol) were made in 1994. I have a couple of these guns in stock (not for sale). The mags were naturally also made for the weapon (16 shot). I was the only Company to receive an import permit from Washington to import such mag.

When there gone, there gone, as no further importation is allowed. The P88 (15 shot) mag is not recommended for the P99
because of liability reasons. It is only to be used in the P88.

In fairness to Walther USA, they have only been in business for 2 years. There is however NO Legal P99 40S&W mags (12 shot), only LE, as this caliber was introduced in 1999. This is not even close to 9/13/1994.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely, Earl

Earl J. Sheehan Jr.
Earl's Repair Service, Inc.
437R Chandler St.
Tewksbury, MA 01876
phone 1-978-851-2656
fax 1-978-851-9462
 

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Discussion Starter #26
A letter from Earl explaining some of the mystery around pre-ban mags.


Dear Sir,
Prototype "P99" guns (originally they were supposed to be called
"HLP"-Hammer Less Pistol) were made in 1994. I have a couple of these guns in stock (not for sale). The mags were naturally also made for the weapon (16 shot). I was the only Company to receive an import permit from Washington to import such mag.

When there gone, there gone, as no further importation is allowed. The P88 (15 shot) mag is not recommended for the P99
because of liability reasons. It is only to be used in the P88.

In fairness to Walther USA, they have only been in business for 2 years. There is however NO Legal P99 40S&W mags (12 shot), only LE, as this caliber was introduced in 1999. This is not even close to 9/13/1994.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely, Earl

Earl J. Sheehan Jr.
Earl's Repair Service, Inc.
437R Chandler St.
Tewksbury, MA 01876
phone 1-978-851-2656
fax 1-978-851-9462
Thank you for posting this. I am about to leave for a winter in the desert of AZ and just have not had a chance to communicate with Earl. From what I read above a Pre Ban magazine MUST HAVE the witness hole marked 16 to be a Pre ban. Same as the photos posted just recently. That would mean that the magazine that I purchased is in fact NOT a Pre Ban mag. It only has the witness holes marked 8 and 12. Oh well. Guess the search continues. I can use the 15 round Mag in AZ. However I camp just across the river barely in CA. When in CA I am right back in the same situation as in NY. decisions. decisions!
 

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A letter from Earl explaining some of the mystery around pre-ban mags.


Dear Sir,
Prototype "P99" guns (originally they were supposed to be called
"HLP"-Hammer Less Pistol) were made in 1994. I have a couple of these guns in stock (not for sale). The mags were naturally also made for the weapon (16 shot). I was the only Company to receive an import permit from Washington to import such mag.

When there gone, there gone, as no further importation is allowed. The P88 (15 shot) mag is not recommended for the P99
because of liability reasons. It is only to be used in the P88.

In fairness to Walther USA, they have only been in business for 2 years. There is however NO Legal P99 40S&W mags (12 shot), only LE, as this caliber was introduced in 1999. This is not even close to 9/13/1994.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely, Earl

Earl J. Sheehan Jr.
Earl's Repair Service, Inc.
437R Chandler St.
Tewksbury, MA 01876
phone 1-978-851-2656
fax 1-978-851-9462
The above info is pretty much what I posted 10 years ago and someone else copied from another board in post #11!!!

This info and a lot more was on my web site back then. ;)

Ken Lunde and I did a lot of Walther research back then. Much of the info came directly from a Walther engineer in Germany at the time.
 

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Discussion Starter #28
The above info is pretty much what I posted 10 years ago and someone else copied from another board in post #11!!!

This info and a lot more was on my web site back then. ;)

Ken Lunde and I did a lot of Walther research back then. Much of the info came directly from a Walther engineer in Germany at the time.
Any of the information resulting from your and K Lunde's research still available in cyber space?
Thanks, DD
Also would you agree that a Pre Ban P99 Mag. MUST HAVE 6 witness holes. Three marked 5, 10, 15 on right side and three marked 8, 12 and 16 on the left side.
From your previous research would you conclude that a magazine that is identical to the photos you posted with the one exception of having only two witness holes on the left side marked 8 & 12 absolutely CANNOT be Pre Ban?
 

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Any of the information resulting from your and K Lunde's research still available in cyber space?
Thanks, DD
Also would you agree that a Pre Ban P99 Mag. MUST HAVE 6 witness holes. Three marked 5, 10, 15 on right side and three marked 8, 12 and 16 on the left side.
From your previous research would you conclude that a magazine that is identical to the photos you posted with the one exception of having only two witness holes on the left side marked 8 & 12 absolutely CANNOT be Pre Ban?
I no longer have any contact with Ken however, his FAQ appears to be still alive. Many of the photos there are mine taken back then.

FAQ

All of the 12-round P99 .40 S&W mags that I have have the old LE restriction warning. They all have witness holes marked 8/12 on the left side of the body and 5/10 on the right side.

As stated by both Walther and Earl, there were no legal 12 round .40 cal. mags. at the time Legal being the operative word.

I have no records left on what I posted on my web site so I doubt if I can help you further.

You understand, the pics I posted are 9mmx19 mags.

All of my P99 9mmx19 16 round mags are "pre-ban" config. None are LE restricted marked. All are marked as in the pics above. Some of my mags go back to the year 2000.

Way back when, I received a pic of an original "HLP" mag from the Walther engineer in Germany but I can't seem to locate it now. It was posted on my web site but I don't find it on Ken's FAQ.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
I had a nice conversation with Earl Sheehan today. During our very pleasant and lengthy conversation Earl explained to me why and how the P99 Pre Ban magazines came to be as well as how some were imported prior to the Federal Ban. Without going into the details I will say that I now have confidence that they do in fact exist. Unfortunately for me the one that I purchased is not a Pre Ban magazine. A Pre Ban magazine would need to be exactly like the ones in the photos that Retired posted. A Pre Ban as explained to me by Earl will be a functional 16 round magazine that was originally designed for the P99. According to him it functions fine in he weapon. I asked him about this because I picked up some information somewhere that the 16 round Mags. were reduced to 15 rounds because of poor performance of some sort.
Thank you to everyone who participated in this thread. It has been an interesting journey. Funny how things took a turn as this thread originally was due to my search for 10 round Magazines. I for one am glad it took the course it did.
I have purchased a sufficient quantity of 10 round Magazines. I am still interested in the Pre Ban P99 magazines should anyone know of any available.
DD
 

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Does anyone know why they changed the capacity?

Not to rub it in DD, but I ended up getting a 15+2 PPQ mag with the funds received from selling you the 10s. It's pretty cool. :D
 

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Discussion Starter #33 (Edited)
Does anyone know why they changed the capacity?

Not to rub it in DD, but I ended up getting a 15+2 PPQ mag with the funds received from selling you the 10s. It's pretty cool. :D
Not a problem. Glad it turned out for you. Not rubbing it in as it is still is not a pre ban Mag. No matter what the round count, 15, 15 plus 2 or whatever. I need a magazine that is manufactured pre ban.
Weird thing is I cannot figure out just what this Mag is that I have. It is identical to the photo's posted by retired but only has the witness holes for 8 and 12 on the left side.
Seems as though I found somewhere that the original 16 round Magazines did not function well and that is why they were reduced to 15 rounds. I do not know if retired could comment as to how they function because I think his are converted to 15 round Mags. by replacing the spring. So even though he has a witness hole marked 16 the Magazine will only accept 15. Maybe I am wrong but I think he did this when he lived in NJ because NJ limits round count to 15.
Sent from Roswell NM Haven't seen any aliens.
EDIT: I see Darkstar commented on the 16 round question. His statement would agree with what I had previously found although I cannot remember where. This is also why I really thought that My 15 round Mag. could very well be a Pre Ban.
I will also add that in contrast to the above, EARL states that the 16 round pre Ban Mag works perfectly in the P99. He states that this is what the pistol ws designed to use.
 

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I was slighty off on the reason I gave so In the interest of complete info:
"When the Walther P99 was first introduced, the magazine capacities for the respective calibers were 16 (9mm) or 12 (.40 Auto) rounds. However, starting in 2004, Carl Walther has downgraded the capacities of both calibers by one round, making them hold 15 (9mm) or 11 (.40 Auto) rounds. The new 15-round 9mm magazines are easily distinguished by having the witness holes on the back of the magazine, as opposed to on both sides of the magazine for the original 16-round and so-called Turkish 15-round ones. The new 15-round 9mm magazines also have a inward-intruding rib that runs vertical on both sides of the magazine, which serves to keep the capacity at 15 rounds. Carl Walther apparently made this magazine capacity change due to the difficulty by some users to insert a full magazine into the pistol with the slide closed."
 

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Discussion Starter #35 (Edited)
I was slighty off on the reason I gave so In the interest of complete info:
"When the Walther P99 was first introduced, the magazine capacities for the respective calibers were 16 (9mm) or 12 (.40 Auto) rounds. However, starting in 2004, Carl Walther has downgraded the capacities of both calibers by one round, making them hold 15 (9mm) or 11 (.40 Auto) rounds. The new 15-round 9mm magazines are easily distinguished by having the witness holes on the back of the magazine, as opposed to on both sides of the magazine for the original 16-round and so-called Turkish 15-round ones. The new 15-round 9mm magazines also have a inward-intruding rib that runs vertical on both sides of the magazine, which serves to keep the capacity at 15 rounds. Carl Walther apparently made this magazine capacity change due to the difficulty by some users to insert a full magazine into the pistol with the slide closed."
Oh I don't believe I am going to type this as I was ready to accept the fact that my magazine is NOT Pre Ban. I see you put quotation marks on the above. So there is a source? Reason I ask is that the Mag. I have DOES HAVE the witness holes on the sides. ( not the back ) Also it does NOT have the "inward protruding rib that runs vertical on both sides of the Magazine, which serves to keep the capacity at 15 rounds" So my magazine could be one of the so called Turkish 15 round magazine and be Pre Ban?

Edit; Consider, 1) 15 round magazines produced between Sept. 13 1994 had to be marked "For law enforcemnt of military use only" 2) 15 round magazines with the inward protruding ribs and witness holes in the back side of the magazine and NO Leo/military marking began production in 2004 when the federal Ban went away.
3) Just when was an old style 15 round Mag. ( No inward protruding ribs and has witness holes on the sides) AND NO LEO/Military markings Produced? Leaves one to believe before Sept. 13 1994. A turkish 15 round magazine?
 

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Discussion Starter #37
FAQ III-6

Theres my source. Thought you already read this stuff!
You are correct, I have read that. I have read and researched so much on the subject that where I have been in regards to research get lost.

If the following is factual I believe that it is reasonable to believe the magazine I possess is one of the So called "Turkish" 15 round magazines and is in fact pre ban.
1) New style Mags. with the vertical ribs and witness holes on the back side began production in 2004. No LEO/Military markings as the Federal ban went away then also.
2) Any magazine produced/imported between Sept 13 1994 and Sept 14 2004 that was more than 10 rounds was marked LEO/Military use only.
3) Magazine I possess is early style with witness holes on the sides and no vertical ribs. In addition there is NO LEO/Military use only marking. Thus was not from Sept 13 1994 to Sept 14 2004 and was also not after Sept 14 2004. It had to be made at some point in time which leaves prior to Sept 13 1994.
If anyone reading this can offer another conclusion I would be greatful to hear it.
I know this is getting old and has in fact been discussed before. However, there does seem to be some information still uncovered.
 

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I'm happy to hear that your feeling pretty confident you got a preban. Inhonestly believe that LE would have a near impossible time proving otherwise if it ever came to a legal confrontation. I know if I were you I would accept it as a true preban. If you ever found yourself with a legal charge challenging the issue that the district attorny would not pursue a case against you. You have no intention of breaking the law and the worst case is that you were mistaken despite significant effort to establish its legallity. I even believe that this thread is emcould be used as evidence in your defense that best efforts were made to ensure no law is broken. I say let it rest and take comfort in these facts. Congratulations on obtaining your preban high cap mag and enjoy!
 

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Discussion Starter #39
I'm happy to hear that your feeling pretty confident you got a preban. Inhonestly believe that LE would have a near impossible time proving otherwise if it ever came to a legal confrontation. I know if I were you I would accept it as a true preban. If you ever found yourself with a legal charge challenging the issue that the district attorny would not pursue a case against you. You have no intention of breaking the law and the worst case is that you were mistaken despite significant effort to establish its legallity. I even believe that this thread is emcould be used as evidence in your defense that best efforts were made to ensure no law is broken. I say let it rest and take comfort in these facts. Congratulations on obtaining your preban high cap mag and enjoy!
Well, I cannot say that I am 100% confident. I will continue to try other sources as my time allows. Perhaps communication with Walther will reveal something.
As for this thread I feel the topic has pretty much run it course. I appreciate all who contributed as well as everyone's patience as I know there were discussions on the topic in the past.
Left the 15 rounder home as I am now parked Approximately 1/2 mile inside CA for the winter.
Regards to all.
 
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