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Old 07-21-2019, 11:19 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Misfire View Post
Ok, I finally got some time to see what my Q5 SF does with low-powered match ammo loads. Last time I tried with this ammo was during a match and got a double-feed while on the timer so I didn't have time to analyze the situation at that time.

Today I went through about 50 rounds at the range and got a failure-to-eject (stove pipe) on the last round in a magazine of 15 rounds. More often than not, the slide failed to lock back when a mag went empty.

I filmed it with high FPS gopro, but I haven't reviewed that footage yet. It was also a pretty dark indoor range, so not sure if anything can been seen...

Anyway, it seems to me that the slide doesn't cycle all the way back with this ammo, preventing the slide from locking back properly when empty and sometimes causing a failure-to-eject.

I'm thinking that I need a weaker guide rod spring when using this ammo...?

I'm going to try with Keith's stronger extractor spring, which may help with extraction and ejection. But I think I may still need a new guide rod spring too for proper slide lock, and may also help with ejection further.

Btw, note that my Q5SF has no problems at all with Blazer 124gr factory ammo (power factor 142). I've gone through thousands of rounds of those without a single problem. It's just this hand-loaded low-powered match ammo (power factor 130-something) that causes problems for me.

Where would you guys recommend me to go to find a weaker recoil spring? Sprinco? Apparently they have a "yellow" spring for lighter loads... (part 19172)

(I've attached photo of the stove pipe)
Great post, I received my shooting Chrony last week and decided to put some hard data around the failure to eject and failure to extract fired rounds of 115gr loads for my Q5 SF.

I load all my rounds and use 115gr round nose copper coated bullets. I also use Tight Group powder and load from a range of 4.3 to 4.8 grs. Total length around 1.125 inches.

In previous post I was fighting the primary issue of failure to extract. I have also experience failure to eject (STOVE PIPE) as described above. In my efforts to solve both I started increasing the amount of powder in my rounds but discover that the failure to extract became noticeable more frequent. I liked the way the higher loaded felt when shooting the heavy SF.

To eliminate the failure to extract I developed the stronger ejection spring, it worked well. I have a new batch now in stock, if you want one. Email me at [email protected] , they cost 10 dollars ea 8 bucks ea for 5 or more.

To help solve the ejection issue I have moved to a lighter recoil spring.

Summary, based on my loaded stock and the new Crony toy I have the following recommendations.

Shooting Power Factor loads of 135 to 142 you may have ejection issues with stock recoil spring.

Shooting PF of 142 to 145 eliminates most of the ejection issues but could get into the issue of failure to extract.

Shooting PF of 145 to 148 will eject great but increase the extraction issue.

For me the sweet spot is 142 to 146 PF with a reduced recoil spring and the stronger extractor spring.

The new extractor spring works fine under all loads. But if you are going to shoot lower PF loads I would highly recommend a lower power recoil spring.

I have discovered that for a very experienced shooter that can feel the vast difference in PF loads when shooting will want to customize the slide and it's functions to match their preference.

Kind Regards, K
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Old 07-21-2019, 11:45 AM   #152
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szhttm01 .22
Quote:
Originally Posted by keithwhite100 View Post
Great post, I received my shooting Chrony last week and decided to put some hard data around the failure to eject and failure to extract fired rounds of 115gr loads for my Q5 SF.

I load all my rounds and use 115gr round nose copper coated bullets. I also use Tight Group powder and load from a range of 4.3 to 4.8 grs. Total length around 1.125 inches.

In previous post I was fighting the primary issue of failure to extract. I have also experience failure to eject (STOVE PIPE) as described above. In my efforts to solve both I started increasing the amount of powder in my rounds but discover that the failure to extract became noticeable more frequent. I liked the way the higher loaded felt when shooting the heavy SF.

To eliminate the failure to extract I developed the stronger ejection spring, it worked well. I have a new batch now in stock, if you want one. Email me at [email protected] , they cost 10 dollars ea 8 bucks ea for 5 or more.

To help solve the ejection issue I have moved to a lighter recoil spring.

Summary, based on my loaded stock and the new Crony toy I have the following recommendations.

Shooting Power Factor loads of 135 to 142 you may have ejection issues with stock recoil spring.

Shooting PF of 142 to 145 eliminates most of the ejection issues but could get into the issue of failure to extract.

Shooting PF of 145 to 148 will eject great but increase the extraction issue.

For me the sweet spot is 142 to 146 PF with a reduced recoil spring and the stronger extractor spring.

The new extractor spring works fine under all loads. But if you are going to shoot lower PF loads I would highly recommend a lower power recoil spring.

I have discovered that for a very experienced shooter that can feel the vast difference in PF loads when shooting will want to customize the slide and it's functions to match their preference.

Kind Regards, K

Sprinco recently provided me with the following information for my Q5 SF:
Item 87888 fits all Walther PPQ Series and CanikTP Series pistols. We designed it in collaboration with Danny Thompson of TeamWalther. A very large majority of Team Walther shooter use our RecoilManagement System. That would be Item 19172 for your SF. If you're running 115or 124 Gr. heads, with most Q5 specimens you can go down to around 126 PF,however, when running 145, 147, 15, 160 Gr. heads, 130 PF is the absolute floorfor reliable function. That's dictated by the pistol design, not anyone's desires.If you're reloading, the "sweet spot" PF in the Q5's for the heavyheads is 133 - 134.
Sprinco item # 87888 reduces the trigger pull weight and items # 19172 is their recoil reducer guide rod with a softer recoil spring that comes with the factory recoil guide rod. Their suggestions above in regards to power factors is when using item # 19172.


I can only assume that the Walther Q5 comes from the factory with a recoil spring that can handle NATO type ammo.

Last edited by szhttm01; 07-21-2019 at 11:52 AM.
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Old 07-21-2019, 04:04 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by szhttm01 View Post
Sprinco item # 87888 reduces the trigger pull weight and items # 19172 is their recoil reducer guide rod with a softer recoil spring that comes with the factory recoil guide rod. Their suggestions above in regards to power factors is when using item # 19172.
Alright, I'll call Sprinco tomorrow and order item #19172 (guide rod + recoil spring). And I'll also get #87888 (trigger return spring + firing pin safety spring) while I'm at it.

The hand-loaded match ammo I'm testing with is 147 gr PF ~133.

It's great that Keith's extractor spring works for all loads. It's trivial to swap out the guide rod recoil spring when switching ammo types, but it would suck to have to also swap out extractor springs all the time.
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Old 07-22-2019, 12:53 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Misfire View Post
Alright, I'll call Sprinco tomorrow and order item #19172 (guide rod + recoil spring). And I'll also get #87888 (trigger return spring + firing pin safety spring) while I'm at it.

The hand-loaded match ammo I'm testing with is 147 gr PF ~133.

It's great that Keith's extractor spring works for all loads. It's trivial to swap out the guide rod recoil spring when switching ammo types, but it would suck to have to also swap out extractor springs all the time.
I run both of those springco kits and shoot down to 125pf w/o issues. No extraction issues when I'm using the right spring for the ammo (red for full power ammo and yellow or white for minimum pf loads. I actually run 125pf without problems in my SF (147gr FN going 850fps with Titegroup).

I've never had any extractor issues in ~2k rounds. I've only had malfunctions when load testing soft ammo with the full power spring, and that's all been very predictable. With the softer springs its been 100% with minimum pf reloads.

Last edited by chrome308; 07-22-2019 at 12:55 AM.
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Old 07-22-2019, 09:12 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by imaoldfart View Post
I use Wilson Combat springs in some of my Q's. Don't have an SF, so can't confirm they'll fit....but I'm thinking they will.

https://shopwilsoncombat.com/Flat-Wi...ctinfo/614G13/

https://shopwilsoncombat.com/Flat-Wi...ctinfo/614G15/
need to use aftermarket guide rod.. not fit factory rod
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Old 07-22-2019, 08:35 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by imaoldfart View Post
I use Wilson Combat springs in some of my Q's. Don't have an SF, so can't confirm they'll fit....but I'm thinking they will.

https://shopwilsoncombat.com/Flat-Wi...ctinfo/614G13/

https://shopwilsoncombat.com/Flat-Wi...ctinfo/614G15/

What guide rod are you using?
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Old 07-22-2019, 08:51 PM   #157
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These https://ssguiderods.com/shop/walther...eel-guide-rod/

I believe they use a Wilson 17 lb. spring. You'll need to call em' to order a guide rod and specify NO loc-tite on the screw. They use 'RED' loc-tite....its a 8itch to remove the screw.

I made a jig using PVC pipe that allows me to compress a spring on a guide rod. Works like a champ changing springs.

When I find a combo I like, I use some 'blue' loc-tite on the screw.
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Old 07-27-2019, 12:23 AM   #158
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Misfire .22
Well, I got all the stuff and installed new:
  • Guide rod + yellow recoil spring (#19172)
  • Trigger return spring + fire pin block spring (#87888)
  • Keith's extractor spring

The pistol now cycled properly, locked back when empty and ejected all cartridges. I had about ~120 rounds to test with.

All except one round which got stuck in the chamber and the slide didn't go fully into battery. Tried that particular round twice with the same result. I kept it to look at it closer later, but it looked like it was just a bad round where its cartridge was bulging a little bit.

In any case, my pistol now feels super-smooth and the shots goes "poof" with almost no recoil instead of "BANG" with some recoil. The trigger went from ~5 pounds to ~3.5 pounds.

I may want to look into achieving a shorter reset at some later point in time, somehow... Unscientifically, it feels to me like the Q5 Match SF has a slightly longer reset than my PPQ M2 4" 9mm.
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Old 07-27-2019, 12:49 PM   #159
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Power and Velocity vs powder weight

I'm continuing to move forward to understand fully how to design the best reloads for my Walther Q5 SF. This all started when I had failure to eject and failure to extract and there was so much information I decided to pull the string and see what was driving all this sort of thing. You can read the posts in string above to get the history and many solutions and options.

I decided to build an accurate loading guide for my 115 grain round nose reloads and having a new velocity meter I loaded the following matrix of 100 rounds at 5 different powder levels covering the full range that I have shoot and loaded in the past.

I have the upgraded SpringCo recoil system with red and white springs, I have ordered the yellow and when it arrives I will update my charts on which spring works best in the power factor ranges.

I will look at developing the same data for the 124 gr bullet in the near future.

In shooting the rounds during the testing I really liked the lower power factor rounds. I used the white spring with the lower three powder loads and the red with the last two. During the test I had no failures to eject or extract. I was also using my extractor spring.

Happy Shooting, Keth
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Picture1.jpg (43.1 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg Picture2.jpg (43.5 KB, 5 views)
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Last edited by keithwhite100; 07-27-2019 at 11:31 PM. Reason: loaded pictures
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Old 07-27-2019, 02:38 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keithwhite100 View Post
I'm continuing to move forward to understand fully how to design the best reloads for my Walther Q5 SF. This all started when I had failure to eject and failure to extract and there was so much information I decided to pull the string and see what was driving all this sort of thing. You can read the posts in string above to get the history and many solutions and options.

I decided to build an accurate loading guide for my 115 grain round nose reloads and having a new velocity meter I loaded the following matrix of 100 rounds at 5 different powder levels covering the full range that I have shoot and loaded in the past.

I have the upgraded SpringCo recoil system with red and white springs, I have ordered the yellow and when it arrives I will update my charts on which spring works best in the power factor ranges.

I will look at developing the same data for the 124 gr bullet in the near future.

In shooting the rounds during the testing I really liked the lower power factor rounds. I used the white spring with the lower three powder loads and the red with the last two. During the test I had no failures to eject or extract. I was also using my extractor spring.

Happy Shooting, Keth
If you like the lower power factor loads, try some 147gr bullets (I use Precision Delta 147 FN bullets). At ~125/130 PF they're sooo soft. 115 and 124 at the same PF recoil a lot harder. I tried 115, 124, 147gr, two powders (HS-6 and Titegroup), and while titegroup vs HS-6 was a very mild difference, the bullet weight made a large difference in the recoil impulse.

I assume this is because kinetic energy is proportional to the square of velocity * weight, but power factor is just velocity * weight, so given the same power factor, the heavier bullet at the lower velocity will definitely be kicking less kinetic energy. If they wanted to normalize for bullet weight, they should really update that formula, cause the math seems to work out exactly one way to me.

Also 20 rounds per test is overkill if you just need velocity numbers. you can save some time doing just 5 rounds or so. You'll still get a good idea of how powder charge affects velocity.
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