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Old 05-28-2019, 11:30 AM   #111
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Misfire .22
Quote:
Originally Posted by DukeIronHand View Post
Notice that Misfire mentions spent casings ejecting differently.
I claim no expertise but, in a perfect world with everything (gun & ammo) being perfect, shouldn’t spent casings extract, travel, and land almost in the same spot?
In theory of perfect anyway as the gun is always operating the same and the ammo perfectly uniform.
When I mentioned inconsistent ejection, I was talking about the match where I was using mixed types of ammo in the same magazine.

Ejections are more consistent when using just a single type of ammo. In the YouTube video I posted I'm using just a single type of ammo (124 gr Blazer factory ammo) so you can visually inspect each ejection yourself.
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Old 05-28-2019, 12:12 PM   #112
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balance .22
Quote:
When I mentioned inconsistent ejection...
It seems like all of the issues in this thread could be traced back to extractor and/or extractor tension issues.
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Old 06-22-2019, 10:38 PM   #113
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I'm sorry it has taken so long to get back to this issue but I've been on vacation and had to order some new parts to resolve the issue most folks have had or having in this thread.

First a little history to catch folks up. Pictured below is the the failure mode that I and others have seen with the new Walther Q5 SF Pro gun. I love this gun other than the grip which is to large for my small hands and the issue where a case is left in the firing chamber from time to time. This issue was a day one issue for me and over the past 4 months in trying to resolve the problem I have traveled down many paths of thought and testing to always come up with no true understanding of the issue and solution which I can 100% say solves this issue.

First there was a lot of discussion on the definition as to what to call this problem and most of us came to be convinced the issue is Failure to Extract the spent case. When I first started shooting this gun I was loading my rounds with 4.3 grains of Tight Group powder with a 115 gr round nose round set at a depth of 1.125 inches of total length. I found this worked well in all my guns and became my standard load for range pickup cases. Failure to Extract would happen once in three mags or so and always happen on the first round fired as I normally load 10 rounds. This went of for a while and I shoot thousands of rounds. My Q5 SF pro has seen at least 5,000 rounds. I looked at everything, compared everything between my Q5 Match and the SF Pro, could not find any difference in the extraction claw, spring and the slide what would cause this issue. I swapped them out, same problem. I thought it might be the Mag and this was not the case as some think this problem is caused by the loose fit of the Mag in the gun, it's not the problem. One person in this thread bent the extraction claw and claimed success in resolving this problem but I didn't want to modify the gun parts and wanted to know why this was happening.

So long story short, 2 months back i increased my loads to 4.6 grains of power, I though this might be better. Well no, the problem was getting worst and the frequency was 50% of the Mags loaded would jam on the first round. So I increased the load to 4.8 grains and I liked the way it shot in the gun but the problem was even worst. Now the odds were 80% a Mag would have a jam and now I was into the 2nd and 3rd rounds fired. Well at least I was making progress in doing something, "if you can make a thing worst you can also make it better".

Thinking a lot about this I formulated the following theory, developed a test, ordered a part and verified the result.

Theory, the only real difference between the Q5 Match and Q5 SF was weight of the gun. There is a huge difference. Yes there are other differences but nothing what would impact this issue. I also theorized that the weight of the full Mag was just enough to cause this problem, and increasing the total energy of the load caused this problem to get worst and formulated that with a slightly lighter gun, i.e. mag being less filled the issue would go away. Think of it like this, when you fire a light gun the slide moves back and the gun also moves back. The force and speed on the slide are impacted by the weight of the gun, increase the gun total weight and the slides force increases. In fact if the gun weighed 100 lbs, stay with me here, the slide would see almost 100% of the opposing force in movement and the gun would hardly move. If your gun weighted 10oz much of the movement would be the gun, i.e. muzzle flip and required force to hold the gun when fired.

So the only solution with my issue was to increase the holding force of the extractor. After detailed inspections of the claw I could see not real way to improve on the design. So my only option was to increase the extractor spring force. So after a lot of looking and testing I came up with a spring which added about 1 additional pound of force on the extractor. I tried higher but then I started to scar the case and it became harder for the extractor to engage the loading case.

Today I completed firing 500 rounds of 4.3, 4.6 and 4.8 grains of loads with the stronger spring installed and out of all 500 rounds I had zero failures to extract, not one single issue. I ran loads from 5 different batches in three different mags and nothing. The first day of testing which was yesterday it was 90 degs and I fired 300 rounds of 4.3 and 4.6 loads in about 35 minutes. The gun was so hot i could not hold it any longer and I had on half gloves, it was smoking. About 3/4 into the 4.3 grain loads i did see that the gun failed return to open chamber as the last round was fired and the cases were hardly making it out of the gun. This gun has very tight tolerances and with the heat was starting to get tight. The 4.6 rounds worked fine even in the hot SF.

Today I shot 200 rounds of the 4.8 grain loads and not a single issue, I loaded the mags to 15 rounds and 10 rounds and nothing, what a joy it was, I was blazing the lead in a full stream.

I know other have to be having this issue and can't understand why the Germans have not issued a correction to this issue. I can only think that it depends so much on all the small factors that impact this that not every gun will fail and failure rates will very greatly.

I am 100% convinced this issue for me is solved in the best way I could and I can now enjoy my Q% SF. I will be happy to sell any person that wants to upgrade to the new spring design for 10 bucks, just drop me a note. I spend countless hours working this issue but happy to help others.

Fully Ejected, Keith White
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Old 06-23-2019, 05:18 AM   #114
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balance .22
I know years ago, on the P99 and SW99, that Walther used to use a lighter extractor spring, that armorers could swap for a heavier one if there were extraction or ejection issues.

At that time, it was recommended that an armorer would switch to the heavier spring if necessary to resolve these issues. The heavier spring that could be used for the extractor, was the same spring used on the mag release lever. This was on a P99 which has the lever mag release.

Does the extractor spring on the PPQ, have the same part number as the mag release spring on the P99?

If not, I'd try that swap first. It is possible that Walther went with a lighter extractor spring on the SF so that it would increase feed reliability, since the SF is more of a competition pistol and light loads are normally used in these types of pistols.

Everything I've read on this issue seems to point to an extractor or extractor tension issue.
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Old 06-23-2019, 08:44 AM   #115
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keithwhite100 .22
Spring did the trick

I don't trust the numbers Walther places on the parts as the extractors between the Q5 Match and Q5 SF has a different number but is the exact same part, there is no difference.

With springs it's all about force created by the wire diameter, spring diameter, number of coils and length inside and out. I increased force about a lb and this worked very well in feeding and I had no issue.

I ordered 8 different springs with all slight differences and weeded all out by two to try in the gun. I went with the light increase in force for feeding reasons and this did the trick. I only tried the two on the bench and only fired the gun with the one I ended up with.

I didn't want to modify any actual part that could not be swapped back out so the spring is where I put the focus. The spring in the Q5 and SF are the exact same. Don't know about the part number but the physical dimensions and force loading are the same, that't what I go by. Anybody can issue a different part number.

There is an issue here and others will see problems over time if Walther does not address the problem. I shoot a lot, so I will see something in a matter of days vs weeks or months for the average shooter. And some may never see this issue as there are so many other controlling factors it's very possible some will not have this issue. In one of my early post I was focused on a particular brand of case, as this case was slightly different in design and was more prone to be impacted by this issue. However, after time other brands of shells also had the problem and shooting range pickup I get it all.
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Old 06-23-2019, 01:51 PM   #116
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balance .22
Quote:
I don't trust the numbers Walther places on the parts as the extractors between the Q5 Match and Q5 SF has a different number but is the exact same part, there is no difference.
Are you sure?

Post #89 on this thread says otherwise.

Personally, I'd at least start by comparing part numbers from the parts I mentioned above. But I don't have this issue, I don't have a steel framed PPQ, and others can feel free to do as they wish.

Last edited by balance; 06-23-2019 at 01:55 PM.
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Old 06-23-2019, 05:44 PM   #117
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balance .22
I just reread the thread to see if I missed anything, and I saw this in post #47:

Quote:
Another note on my extractor, I notice that the sight plate mounting screw does protrude into the extractor recess and left the slightest mark on my extractor. Could inhibit movement, so I easily filed down the screw to flush to take that out of the picture.
I'm surprised that I missed this earlier. I'd suggest that everyone check their pistols to see if in fact the screw is inhibiting movement, as this can explain almost all of the issues described in this thread, and why a heavier extractor spring could fix them.
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Old 06-23-2019, 08:54 PM   #118
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Increasing extractor tension seemed to help me. I tried by applying a slight bend, but another suggested this is the wrong approach, as the type of metal of the extractor does not allow for that. Using a stiffer extractor spring will accomplish the same result, and is easier to replace, if needed.

I had a similar extraction jam after my "fix" of bending it a couple of thousand rounds later, am very interested in trying a stiffer spring. I don't tolerate any of those malfunctions in my competition rig. The spring switch seems to be a better solution. Thanks for sharing that.

I had theorized that the loose mag fit was interfering with extraction in some way, but would like to see how this mod does, as there is not an easy way to adjust those mag guides.
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Old 06-23-2019, 09:26 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by balance View Post
Quote:
I don't trust the numbers Walther places on the parts as the extractors between the Q5 Match and Q5 SF has a different number but is the exact same part, there is no difference.
Are you sure?

Post #89 on this thread says otherwise.

Personally, I'd at least start by comparing part numbers from the parts I mentioned above. But I don't have this issue, I don't have a steel framed PPQ, and others can feel free to do as they wish.
Sure as I can be, they even have the same
Mold press stamp. I could be wrong but I don't think so. I measured everything, twice. And then a third time.
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Old 06-23-2019, 09:28 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by balance View Post
I just reread the thread to see if I missed anything, and I saw this in post #47:

Quote:
Another note on my extractor, I notice that the sight plate mounting screw does protrude into the extractor recess and left the slightest mark on my extractor. Could inhibit movement, so I easily filed down the screw to flush to take that out of the picture.
I'm surprised that I missed this earlier. I'd suggest that everyone check their pistols to see if in fact the screw is inhibiting movement, as this can explain almost all of the issues described in this thread, and why a heavier extractor spring could fix them.
I saw that and verified it was not an issue on my gun.
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