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Old 03-21-2020, 08:54 PM   #1
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"Nazi Party Leader" PPK serial 223664K

I found a video on YouTube about a Nazi Party Leader PPK serial number 223664K


And then I found the same pistol in an auction back in 2013:

https://www.icollector.com/Excellent...cess_i17060898

Same serial number. And same box. Back in 2013--it had the standard Walther grips. Now it doesn't.

And another auction of the same pistol with standard grips.

https://www.rockislandauction.com/de...ol-765-mm-auto

Last edited by phoneman91; 03-21-2020 at 08:58 PM.
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Old 03-21-2020, 10:25 PM   #2
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Deleted.Thank you
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Old 03-21-2020, 10:32 PM   #3
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Here's a video on Forgotten Weapons about the Party Leader PPKs. The SN is in the range so the only way to tell is by examining the grips by an expert, since there are apparently modern replica grips. But there are differences in the replicas and the original Walther grips, which Ian points out. I wouldn't trust the gun listed without an expert evaluation. since all PPKs in that SN range were not Party Leader guns. And not all PPKs with genuine Party Grips are PL pistols unless they fall within the given SN range, since Nazis at that time could purchase the grips and put them on non-PL pistols.

So as I understand it, a genuine PL gun as authorized by the Nazis has to fall within a given SN range and have authentic grips. Ian says a PL PPK is worth about $10k and a same era gun is worth about a fifth of that, so there is plenty incentive to cheat. These guns weren't given to party leaders but were offered for sale at a reduced price if you were a Nazi bigwig.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...3E55&FORM=VIRE

Last edited by Gene L; 03-21-2020 at 10:44 PM.
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Old 03-21-2020, 10:49 PM   #4
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I own the combo now. So someone bought a boxed PPK and put a Party Leader grip on it. Didn't know that when I bought it but Im sure the grips are real. The boxed gun is worth about 4500 - 5k and the Party leader grip is worth about 6-9k. It's not a fake gun and not a fake grip, but clearly someone put them together. Now that I know they were put together recently I will make sure I disclose that. Honestly, whenever I buy a Party Leader PPK I don't assume they were always together unless there is some kind of provenance. Not sure it changes the price as the sum of the parts add up to the same amount. One could also find a minty Party leader holster with it an make a stellar rig. Doesn't make it fake, but I do believe that should be disclosed at point of sale.
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Last edited by LegacyCollectibles; 03-22-2020 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 03-21-2020, 11:35 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LegacyCollectibles View Post
I own the combo now. So someone bought a boxed PPK and put a Party Leader grip on it. Didn't know that when I bought it but Im sure the grips are real. The boxed gun is worth about 4500 - 5k and the Party leader grip is worth about 6-7k. It's not a fake gun and not a fake grip, but clearly someone put them together. Now that I know they were put together recently I will make sure I disclose that. Honestly, whenever I buy a Party Leader PPK I don't assume they were always together unless there is some kind of provenance. Not sure it changes the price as the sum of the parts add up to the same amount. One could also find a minty Party leader holster with it an make a stellar rig. Doesn't make it fake, but I do believe that should be disclosed at point of sale.
No it doesn't make it a fake. And what you are suggesting would be the best way to handle a sale--but at the same time--I can't help to wonder if a future owner would be so proper and forthcoming when he sold it. At the prices commanded by such an original pistol--I would expect most buyers to want an originally factory assembled pistol with all components original to the pistol.

Last edited by phoneman91; 03-24-2020 at 06:35 PM.
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Old 03-21-2020, 11:39 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene L View Post
Here's a video on Forgotten Weapons about the Party Leader PPKs. The SN is in the range so the only way to tell is by examining the grips by an expert, since there are apparently modern replica grips. But there are differences in the replicas and the original Walther grips, which Ian points out. I wouldn't trust the gun listed without an expert evaluation. since all PPKs in that SN range were not Party Leader guns. And not all PPKs with genuine Party Grips are PL pistols unless they fall within the given SN range, since Nazis at that time could purchase the grips and put them on non-PL pistols.

So as I understand it, a genuine PL gun as authorized by the Nazis has to fall within a given SN range and have authentic grips. Ian says a PL PPK is worth about $10k and a same era gun is worth about a fifth of that, so there is plenty incentive to cheat. These guns weren't given to party leaders but were offered for sale at a reduced price if you were a Nazi bigwig.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...3E55&FORM=VIRE
I was just wondering how you collectors felt about an assembly of original parts--that may not have been assembled originally together at the factory back in 1938. I am surprised that anyone would alter an historic pistol.
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Old 03-21-2020, 11:44 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LegacyCollectibles View Post
I own the combo now. So someone bought a boxed PPK and put a Party Leader grip on it. Didn't know that when I bought it but Im sure the grips are real. The boxed gun is worth about 4500 - 5k and the Party leader grip is worth about 6-7k. It's not a fake gun and not a fake grip, but clearly someone put them together. Now that I know they were put together recently I will make sure I disclose that. Honestly, whenever I buy a Party Leader PPK I don't assume they were always together unless there is some kind of provenance. Not sure it changes the price as the sum of the parts add up to the same amount. One could also find a minty Party leader holster with it an make a stellar rig. Doesn't make it fake, but I do believe that should be disclosed at point of sale.
I am glad you are aware of the status of this individual PPK.I was initially worried that you were taken and paid too much for the PPK. It would have been nice if you would have mentioned this fact in your YouTube video. I was stunned when I saw that this same pistol was sold twice in 2013--one time for 3500 and the last time for 4025 dollars. When buying pistols such as this--Google is your friend. And please--if you resale it --remove the NPL grips. Even if a future buyer is informed of the actual status of this pistol--this information may not be passed on to their estate.

Last edited by phoneman91; 03-21-2020 at 11:57 PM.
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Old 03-21-2020, 11:52 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene L View Post
Here's a video on Forgotten Weapons about the Party Leader PPKs. The SN is in the range so the only way to tell is by examining the grips by an expert, since there are apparently modern replica grips. But there are differences in the replicas and the original Walther grips, which Ian points out. I wouldn't trust the gun listed without an expert evaluation. since all PPKs in that SN range were not Party Leader guns. And not all PPKs with genuine Party Grips are PL pistols unless they fall within the given SN range, since Nazis at that time could purchase the grips and put them on non-PL pistols.

So as I understand it, a genuine PL gun as authorized by the Nazis has to fall within a given SN range and have authentic grips. Ian says a PL PPK is worth about $10k and a same era gun is worth about a fifth of that, so there is plenty incentive to cheat. These guns weren't given to party leaders but were offered for sale at a reduced price if you were a Nazi bigwig.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...3E55&FORM=VIRE

And this video mentioned by you above--also has this same serial number 223664K with the NPL grips on it. And this video makes the viewer believe that this is a factory assembled combination.

Last edited by phoneman91; 03-21-2020 at 11:55 PM.
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Old 03-22-2020, 08:57 AM   #9
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As far as historical Party PPKs are concerned, I would take an RZM marked PPK in the correct serial block over a possible put together PL gripped PPK. But that’s just me.
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Old 03-22-2020, 09:57 AM   #10
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As far as historical Party PPKs are concerned, I would take an RZM marked PPK in the correct serial block over a possible put together PL gripped PPK. But thatís just me.

You are aware that RZM PPKs were offered to members of the SA and HJ at the similar discount prices for Political Leaders? So you cannot be sure an RZM pistol was purchased only by a PL.
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