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Old 07-06-2012, 09:32 PM   #1
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Question about Super Cal 9X18

I know where a PP Super Cal 9X18 is for sale in Calif. What exact caliber in terms I can understand is it? I dont know if the gun is "chambered" to fit another caliber, but this is what it says on the left slide of the gun.
"Super Cal 9X18" . also says made in W. Germany
Please any help or advice.
Seller says Serial # 12825 and may have been imported in the ealy 70's.
Since I live in Kalif, dont know if I can get it but only through PPT and not a gunstore purchase.
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Old 07-06-2012, 09:57 PM   #2
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9mm Ultra, or 9x18 Police, has essential the cartridge dimensions as a 9x19mm Luger round, only it is 1mm shorter and has the rim dimensions of a .380acp. The bullet weight is around that of a .380acp, around 100gr. Do not confuse 9x18Ultra with 9x18 Makarov. The two calibers are significantly different.

The PP Super is a great pistol if you like the Walther PP-series pistols. I am a big fan, personally, and I own a couple PP Supers. The ballistics of the 9mm Ultra are superior to both .380 acp and 9mm Makarov. However, 9x18mm Ultra ammo is not easy to obtain. I would not recommend it, but you can shoot .380acp ammo with PP Super. Again, I do not recommend shooting anything but the designated caliber ammo in any firearm.

I hope this helps.

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Old 07-06-2012, 10:13 PM   #3
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Doc, how does that work, to the degree that it does work? Does the round headspace on the extractor?

I've handled pistols in this caliber, but have shied away for the ammo issue.

Can the round be reloaded on 9mm or .380 dies?
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Old 07-06-2012, 10:34 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdocz View Post
9mm Ultra, or 9x18 Police, has essential the cartridge dimensions as a 9x19mm Luger round, only it is 1mm shorter and has the rim dimensions of a .380acp. The bullet weight is around that of a .380acp, around 100gr. Do not confuse 9x18Ultra with 9x18 Makarov. The two calibers are significantly different.

The PP Super is a great pistol if you like the Walther PP-series pistols. I am a big fan, personally, and I own a couple PP Supers. The ballistics of the 9mm Ultra are superior to both .380 acp and 9mm Makarov. However, 9x18mm Ultra ammo is not easy to obtain. I would not recommend it, but you can shoot .380acp ammo with PP Super. Again, I do not recommend shooting anything but the designated caliber ammo in any firearm.

I hope this helps.

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This has cleared me up a bit. What I am wondering, Can I use .380acp that I would buy at a gunshow or store in the commerial box? Is 9mm Makarov different than 9mm luger? If the 9mm is different then I presume I can shoot regular .380acp without having any gunsmithing work?
If I need to alter anything I may not get it due to scarcity of the ammo(pmm Makarov). Please let me know thanx.
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Old 07-06-2012, 10:58 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinkydau View Post
If the 9mm is different then I presume I can shoot regular .380acp without having any gunsmithing work?.
Dinkydau, it can never be recommended to fire ANY cartridge aside from that which is marked on the side of your weapon. Ever. There are many, many reasons for this, to include chamber pressures, tolerances of the internal components, and not the least of which the "timing" of the pistol. Let's not leave out the fact the 9mm Ultra has a tapered casing, which means the chamber of a pistol designed to fire it will be tapered as well. Trying to stuff a 9mm kurz cartridge into the chamber is sure to cause binding or at least "slop" at the rear of the chamber.

Here are the specifications for the three different cartridges mentioned:

.380 Auto (or 9mm kurz)

Case type Rimless, straight
Bullet diameter .355 in (9.0 mm)
Neck diameter .373 in (9.5 mm)
Base diameter .374 in (9.5 mm)
Rim diameter .374 in (9.5 mm)
Rim thickness .045 in (1.1 mm)
Case length .680 in (17.3 mm)
Overall length .984 in (25.0 mm)

9mm Luger, 9mm parabellum or 9 x 19mm

Case type Rimless, tapered
Bullet diameter 9.01 mm (0.355 in)
Neck diameter 9.65 mm (0.380 in)
Base diameter 9.93 mm (0.391 in)
Rim diameter 9.96 mm (0.392 in)
Rim thickness 0.90 mm (0.035 in)
Case length 19.15 mm (0.754 in)
Overall length 29.69 mm (1.169 in)

9mm Ultra or 9mm Police

Case Type................Tapered
Bullet diameter...........9mm
Case Length...............18mm
Case Opening..............9.02mm
Mouth Diameter............9.68mm
Base Diameter.............9.87mm
Extractor Base Diameter...9.5mm


I know you may be very interested in this rather rare pistol, but I'm fairly certain why it's for sale. You're just not going to have a lot of luck finding ammunition for it, especially in Kalifornia. Even if you do manage to find ammunition, expect it to be big, BIG $$$!

-Pilotsteve
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Old 07-06-2012, 11:08 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilotsteve View Post
Dinkydau, it can never be recommended to fire ANY cartridge aside from that which is marked on the side of your weapon. Ever. There are many, many reasons for this, to include chamber pressures, tolerances of the internal components, and not the least of which the "timing" of the pistol. Let's not leave out the fact the 9mm Ultra has a tapered casing, which means the chamber of a pistol designed to fire it will be tapered as well. Trying to stuff a 9mm kurz cartridge into the chamber is sure to cause binding or at least "slop" at the rear of the chamber.

Here are the specifications for the three different cartridges mentioned:

.380 Auto (or 9mm kurz)

Case type Rimless, straight
Bullet diameter .355 in (9.0 mm)
Neck diameter .373 in (9.5 mm)
Base diameter .374 in (9.5 mm)
Rim diameter .374 in (9.5 mm)
Rim thickness .045 in (1.1 mm)
Case length .680 in (17.3 mm)
Overall length .984 in (25.0 mm)

9mm Luger, 9mm parabellum or 9 x 19mm

Case type Rimless, tapered
Bullet diameter 9.01 mm (0.355 in)
Neck diameter 9.65 mm (0.380 in)
Base diameter 9.93 mm (0.391 in)
Rim diameter 9.96 mm (0.392 in)
Rim thickness 0.90 mm (0.035 in)
Case length 19.15 mm (0.754 in)
Overall length 29.69 mm (1.169 in)

9mm Ultra or 9mm Police

Case Type................Tapered
Bullet diameter...........9mm
Case Length...............18mm
Case Opening..............9.02mm
Mouth Diameter............9.68mm
Base Diameter.............9.87mm
Extractor Base Diameter...9.5mm


I know you may be very interested in this rather rare pistol, but I'm fairly certain why it's for sale. You're just not going to have a lot of luck finding ammunition for it, especially in Kalifornia. Even if you do manage to find ammunition, expect it to be big, BIG $$$!

-Pilotsteve
Thank you Pilot Steve for the info. I know one must not try to use a different caliber even though the measurements may be close in any gun. Believe me, I am well aware of that. This was why i was asking.
So according to another post, 9mm Ultra is alright to use?? Dont know. I may be able to pick up the exact ammo, exact cartridge measurement and weight of powder. The 9X18, may be expensive and rare. I have 3 M1 Garands and dont shoot them much because there is little ammo out there; with the gas pressures and all to accomodate the Garand. The regular 30-06 stuff; the press. is too high. This is why people use use those adjustable gas plugs. I dont do that.
Maybe a pipedream. The pistol may be rare,but.............I want to shoot it and dont want it to be a safe queen. I may just pass on it.
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Old 07-07-2012, 12:01 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinkydau View Post
The pistol may be rare,but.............I want to shoot it and dont want it to be a safe queen. I may just pass on it.
Then pass on it, my friend. Go find yourself a regular ole' PPK or PPK/S (whichever fits your hand the best) and enjoy it for the rest of your life. Some will argue the virtues of the two calibers available for it, and I'll offer my brief input here:

9mm kurz (.380 Auto)

Positives:
Fairly common and easy to find.
Plenty nasty enough for self-defense purposes.
Lower cost per shot.
PPK's in this caliber are far more common and much lower priced.

Negatives:
A very "snappy" and sharp recoil, which can be quite unpleasant.
Some reliability issues. This caliber is the absolute maximum possible in a direct-blowback pistol such as the PPK.

7.65 x 17mm (.32 Auto)

Positives:

Very pleasant to shoot. These pistols are sweethearts.
Extraordinary reliability and accuracy.
You get an extra cartridge in your magazine vs. 9mm kurz.
This is the caliber these pistols were designed to fire.

Negatives:

Sometimes hard to find this caliber of cartridge (at least here in Massakistan, anyway).
Definitely more expensive to shoot per cartridge.
Pistols in this caliber are much more expensive and harder to find.

Hope this helps a bit, dinkydau. Oh, and I feel your pain regarding the laws in your state. If you want a fresh dose of the asinine, walk a mile in my shoes here in the Peoples Republik of Massachus-Istan.

-Pilotsteve
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Old 07-07-2012, 12:41 AM   #8
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I reload 9x18Ultra ammo on a Dillon Square Deal B using 9mm Luger dies and a .380acp shellplate. I either use 9x18ultra brass or .38Super Comp casings cut down to 17.97mm. Both brass types work well. I have used various types of jhp or prn 95 or 100gr bullets (.355") with Bullseye, TiteGroup or Power Pistol powder. The 9mm Ultra is a tremendously accurate round when fired from the PP-Super or Sig P230.

The 9x18Ultra headspaces on the case mouth. So a .380 bullet seats very deep in the chamber. When fired, I suspect the recoil pushes the spent casing back into the breach where rim is grabbed by the ejector. Alternatively, the bullet may stay back against the breach with rim held by extractor. In which case the bullet would be effectively headspaced by its rim. I am certain a more knowledgeable forum member could enlighten us on how it would work.

Regardless, as stated above, although people have been known to do it, it is not recommended to shoot .380acp ammo in a pistol chambered for 9x18mm Ultra.

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Old 07-07-2012, 01:11 AM   #9
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Question for someone who doesn't know better (Still have a lot to learn about all the different types of ammo out there). Is 9x18 Ultra the same as 9x18 Super? If so I know Georgia Arms has 9x18 ultra Georgia Arms - 9X18 ULTRA AUTO and I am honestly wondering because have seen a couple PP Supers at gun shows and have caught myself drooling, but my hubby is majorly put off by the ammo requirements.
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Old 07-07-2012, 10:17 AM   #10
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I believe we're talking about the same thing: The PP Super was chambered for the 9x18 Ultra round (unless you can find one of the rare PP Supers that was chambered for the .380 ACP), so I think you're seeing the terms "Super" and "Ultra" used interchangeably on the site to which you link goes.

There's been a PP Super on consignment at my favorite local gun store for well over a year now. I keep drooling, but as it's not in .380 I have passed on it so far.
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