Chemrat22 threw down the challenge....! I'm taking it on. - Page 2 - WaltherForums
WaltherForums
 

Go Back   WaltherForums > Walther Firearms > P22 > FAQ: P22

Like Tree7Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-01-2013, 07:58 PM   #11
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Indian Springs, AL
Posts: 8,775
1917-1911M .38
Thanks for the kind words Chemrat22......are you crazy? Physics, you think there is an understanding of physics in this. The only physics I had was in HS and a fellow in my class named Lewis Perdue built an ion engine for the world science fair. He came in second place because they didn't believe he built it. He did, I watched part of it, right in the back of the classroom. Now Lewis understands physics and math. Me, I'm just a back yard, shade tree mechanic. Lewis is a best selling author and the last picture I had of him was at the SHOT show holding a Barrett .50 cal. as he was researching firearms for his books. He stopped in and said hello to the Walther guys for me.....Daniel was there and others.

Powder, that might be the magic ingredient you are wondering about. I was reading about the ballistics of some popular rounds of .22 as fired out of a 10/22 with a 20" barrel. Foot lbs of energy for the 38 gr RGB was 135 IIRC and Federal 40 gr bulk was 140 ft lbs. That might be out of a 20"-24" barrel....but it ain't out of a 3.4" P22. RGBs will walk off and leave the Federal rounds behind.

I can only imagine different powder might be the difference. Perhaps the remington powder burns much faster than the Federal. The longer barrel allows the Federal ammo to achieve maximum speed. I don't know, I just know from my shooting experience and the recoil of Federal ammo vs bulk Remington....the Rem is much more powerful.

I haven't had time to go look for ammo yet but I did fire about 20 old rounds of Federal blue box forty grain bulk....$6/500 rounds stuff and some old Winchester copper plated stuff. Five years old or more. These I do not have good luck with. But, they blasted out of there 100% with the lighter spring. Actually, recoil reminded me pretty much of RGBs with a stock spring. There was no doubt the slide was slapping rearward. I expect the answer to less powerful ammo is in the recoil spring. Too bad there aren't any aftermarket springs because what I'm seeing is the shorter spring allows these rounds to run perfectly. At this point I'm not really sure where to go to get any Remington Subsonic rounds. Walmart has no .22 ammo. Academy will get their Tuesday shipment in in the morning but rarely do they get subsonic. Might get 500 rounds of RGBs.

If I had been thinking....I could have clipped 2 coils and tested the pistol with some of this bulk weaker ammo. I did test the pistol with the Wolf target ammo but even with 4 coils cut that ammo won't cycle. I'm not sure how it compares to subsonic ammo.

Just read along and look at the pictures. You will understand as much as I do.....which sets me to thinking...what can I do next......after finding ammo that is...... M1911
1917-1911M is offline   Reply With Quote
Register
Old 07-01-2013, 08:24 PM   #12
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Indian Springs, AL
Posts: 8,775
1917-1911M .38
Heh, heh, heh..... found an old bulk box of Federal Champion. Just fired some of em too. They really kick like RGBs or MiniMags with the shorter spring. I guess if someone had some ammo they are having issues with it not cycling they could cut two coils and see if that helps. Sure is making this old P22 run like it is full of RGBs or CCI ammo. Guess I won't be so picky with what ammo I purchase. Will buy whatever good deal I can get my hands on. This spring will run them I'm thinking. M1911
1917-1911M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2013, 10:43 PM   #13
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Indian Springs, AL
Posts: 8,775
1917-1911M .38
Remington subsonics are 38 gr., velocity is 1050 fps and 93 ft lbs of muzzle energy out of a rifle I suppose. Specs don't say.

Wolf match target is 40 gr velocity is 1050 fps which would yield 98 ft lbs of energy. ( 40 x 1050x1050/450400 = 98 ft lb) My P22 with four clipped coils won't quite cycle the Wolf ammo. It appears the Remington Subsonics will be even more difficult to cycle. When I find some I will further my experiments. I'm thinking a weaker hammer spring is going to have to play in the mix for reliable cycling in the 3.4" barrel with no suppressor. I think the weaker spring will accommodate most of the other weaker HV ammo that might not cycle reliably. More test later when I find more ammo varieties. Tough pickings right now if you are hunting specific ammo. M1911
1917-1911M is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Old 07-03-2013, 01:44 AM   #14
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Indian Springs, AL
Posts: 8,775
1917-1911M .38
Wolff Gunsprings - Firearm Springs for Semi-Auto Pistols, Revolvers, Rifles, & Shotguns

Interesting read regarding recoil springs, constant rate vs. varieable rate spring and their effect on semi auto pistols from Wolff Springs. M1911
1917-1911M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 11:02 AM   #15
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Indian Springs, AL
Posts: 8,775
1917-1911M .38
From the slide pull measurements I'm calling the recoil spring a 5# spring. The old one 4.5#. Compression of these should be uniform. In other words if I compress the new spring to 1/2 of its free length that should require 2.5 lbs.

Looking at a chart for Remington Golden Bullets the velocity of the round out of a 20" barrel is 1176 fps. The velocity out of a 3.4" P22 drops to 925 fps.

Velocity and energy drop considerably from 36 ( 925 x 925 ) /450400 = 68 ftlbs of muzzle energy vs 110.5 ftlb out of a 20" barrel. This is adequate energy for a stock P22. But how does the subsonic perform. The RGB drops to 79% of the velocity out of a 20" barrel. The Rem Subsonic has a velocity of 1050 fps out of a 20" barrel. So, I'm assuming a 21% drop in velocity out of the P22 short barrel. The 93 ft lbs of energy would drop to 73.5 ftlb of energy if my assumptions and math are correct. So...since the RGBs more than have enough energy for cycling the slide not all of the 93 ftlbs of energy is required but how much is actually required is going to be more than 73.5 ftlb I expect.

I think the Wolf Match Target 40 gr ( 73.5 ftlb out of 3.4" barrel) is going to be very similar to the Subsonic rounds. Only testing will tell as I don't have anything to accurately measure the recoil spring all by itself. The math would say that if 21% of the recoil springs length were removed the spring would match the lighter rounds. In reading some of the information on compression springs it seems trial and error is the most common form of testing.

Just how much less than 21 percent of the spring length needs to be removed remains to be seen. Does anyone have any better ideas. Longer barrel models and suppressed models will allow the round to develop a little more energy. M1911

Last edited by 1917-1911M; 07-03-2013 at 11:06 AM.
1917-1911M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 11:43 AM   #16
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Indian Springs, AL
Posts: 8,775
1917-1911M .38
The math works out to a 3 3/8" spring length. Four coils removes leaves a 3 3/16" spring length. This should be short enough...but isn't for the Wolf. Of course the few rounds I have are 10 years old. I need new ammo. The current spring allows the Wolf case to extract but not quite eject when a full magazine is installed for testing. Just fired my last Wolf Match Target with an empty mag.....almost. Sidewise stovepipe. Another half coil or some fresher ammo and it might cycle. M1911
1917-1911M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 04:44 PM   #17
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Illinois
Posts: 16
Sosumi .22
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1917-1911M View Post
Spring inch pounds is what I need to figure out.
Close, but I think you mean pounds per inch. Spring constant, k, is the ratio of the load to the deflection. k=P/Δ

What exactly are you trying to calculate?

Generally speaking, for a given wire diameter, spring diameter and spring length, a spring with fewer coils will be stiffer.
Sosumi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 08:11 PM   #18
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Indian Springs, AL
Posts: 8,775
1917-1911M .38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sosumi View Post
Close, but I think you mean pounds per inch. Spring constant, k, is the ratio of the load to the deflection. k=P/Δ

What exactly are you trying to calculate?

Generally speaking, for a given wire diameter, spring diameter and spring length, a spring with fewer coils will be stiffer.
It's about time you showed up. Where have you been while I've been scratchin my head on this. Chemrat22 bet me 10,000 rounds of CCI Mini Mags that I couldn't make Remington Subsonics cycle a P22. That is what this thread is about and



I just found some today. Wimpy things with 73 ftlb or lbft of energy out of a P22. I already have the hole planned for all those rounds to go through so I've got to make this work. If you read the thread you will see I've sort of assessed the recoil spring, assessed some of the energy of rounds out of a 20" barrel and then a couple out of the 3.4" P22 barrel. What I'm working on is the recoil spring. Stock hammer spring. This particular spring takes about 4.5 lbs of pull on the slide to move it to the rear, guts from the pistol removed. A new spring in a Q model takes appx 5 lbs.

I've clipped 4 coils off the old spring which was 4 1/4" long and is not 3 3/16" long and takes less pull but that is the entire spring length including the closed ends and no the coil length. I never have been able to solve a fraction with a pyramid in it either. The recoil spring should be a constant, ummmmmmm, ahhhhhhh.....pressure or something. Now the spring can't be too short or the guide rod won't stay in place and it can't be too light or the slide might start moving too quick. I don't know....just making stuff up.. No scientific approach here. Just talk, measure, talk, talk, clip coils, talk, shoot some, talk, look for ammo.......did I mention talk? Now to strap on the ear protection and test some of these things...then talk. M1911
1917-1911M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 08:56 PM   #19
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Indian Springs, AL
Posts: 8,775
1917-1911M .38
Just loaded up a mag with the subsonic and fired off 10 rounds with no issues at all. All cases ejected appx 5' to the right. Although these have the same energy as the Wolf Match Target rounds I fired earlier.....73 ft lbs IIRC they didn't have any issues. No slow downs, no weak rounds....the slide moved normally, they felt about like Federal or Winchester rounds in a stock P22. They did not kick back like Mini Mags or RGBs do. This was with the recoil spring with four cut coils. If I were doing this over and with some actual ammo to test with....I think I would cut one coil before proceeding to the next, test fire and proceed from there. Those Wolf match target rounds must have been old and weak.

OK rat22......fork over the 10K rounds of mini mags..... don't make me come over there.

The next thing to test is these rounds in my Q model P22 with a stock recoil spring. 10 rounds fired, two ejected but didn't press the slide back far enough to pick up the next round. A little too weak for a short barrel P22 with a stock recoil spring.

You guys need to remember that my pistols have the new breech block mod so that once the hammer is cocked the slide moves forward without the hammer dragging on the breech block or safety drum. I expect weakening the recoil spring will lead to a lot of hung up slides if you haven't included this mod. I have lowered the pull on the slide from 5 lbs to 3 lb 4oz I think...something like that, back a couple of pages is the correct pull weight. M1911



]

Breech block mod where the hammer is cocked at the last moment when it briefly rides up on the full thickness breech block then doesn't touch the slide as it moves forward. I know In the picture above the breech block isn't sitting exactly square with the hammer. That is because the breech block is not pinned in. I had simply inserted it into the top of the slide to take this picture. Once pinned down it is square and the cocked hammer no longer touches the filed down portion. 90% of rotating the hammer to the rear is still by the safety drum. The final small amount is by the full thickness of the metal on the bottom of the breech block that sits over the retaining pin hole.



Hammer just moving up onto bottom of breech block for final cocking. Safety set to fire.



Here you can see the gap between the breech block and cocked hammer.



Photo of modification...filed...this area will then be polished because the hammer does run over it when the slide is moving rearward cocking the hammer.


Side profile of the new breech block mod. I say new because for years there was another mod that I posted that might be in the bible but is not as good as this mod.

Last edited by 1917-1911M; 07-04-2013 at 12:24 PM.
1917-1911M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2013, 12:26 AM   #20
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Illinois
Posts: 16
Sosumi .22
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1917-1911M View Post
It's about time you showed up. Where have you been while I've been scratchin my head on this.
I'm a recent mechanical engineering grad. I did spring design for car door handles (torsion springs specifically) during a summer internship, so I learned more about springs than most people would care to

You won't be able to much of anything about the hammer spring. Square wire springs produce much more force than round wire springs, and are less economical to produce.
1917-1911M likes this.
Sosumi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   WaltherForums > Walther Firearms > P22 > FAQ: P22


Search tags for this page

application of twisted compression spring in a walther

,

can cutting the guide rod spring on a walther p22 not make it fire

,

cci 22 lr hp 36 grain 1260 fps it is best to use in walther p22

,

double torsion spring hammer stock

,

hammer and sear p38

,

hammer drags on slide gsg 1911 22

,

how many pounds of recoil does a walther p22 have

,

m1911 solidworks

,

removing c clamp on hammer return spring on 1022

,

trigger with trigger bar

,

walther p22 5 inch barrel or 3.4

,

walther p22 takedown lever

Click on a term to search for related topics.

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On





Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.