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A warning to those who want to shoot WWII-vintage P.38s

56K views 132 replies 60 participants last post by  cmdrcody 
#1 ·
We get questions from time to time here from folks who buy a WWII-vintage P.38, or who are thinking of buying one, and want to use it primarily as a shooter rather than as a collector piece. As often as not, the advice is to have a qualified gunsmith check out the pistol thoroughly and then shoot it with 115-grain ammo.

But it's also wise to keep in mind that if something happens and the pistol blows up for one reason or another -- from overloaded ammo to inferior materials as the war dragged on -- then you are out the investment, at a minimum. This doesn't happen a lot, so far as we know, but it's been know to happen. For example, note this word of caution from our friends on the P.38 Forum:

P 38 & PP-PPK Collector Forum

If you blow up a P1, you can easily buy a new slide for less than $50 bucks, and it won't matter a whit; a shooter is a shooter, after all. Replacing a cracked slide or other parts on a vintage, matched WWII pistol, however, is a whole other issue.

Make your own judgments, of course, but at least be aware of the potential of what can happen to a collector pistol should something go awry.
 
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#36 ·
My new AC 43 stack mismatch

I love it. It is my connection with WW 2. I shoot it. I will reload ammo to shoot in it. The reason Germany lost the war is because all their P38 s blew up and their soldiers had nothing left to fight with......
Please give all us P38 shooters a break!

Guns were made to be shot
Airplanes made to be flown
Automobiles made to be driven
Humans were meant to love, and not hate
 
#38 · (Edited)
I got my hands on an ac-43 P38 a few weeks ago. Sent it out to Earl's and he replaced a few springs and the ejector, cleaned/lubed and test fired multiple times-told me it was a great shooter and safe to use as such. It appeared that it had not been more than field stripped and cleaned since it was issued. It ran flawlessly today on 124 grain and some mild 147 grain loads. Earl recommended 124 grain ammo. I felt a lot more confident having had a professional look it over even though I have repaired more than a few old guns. I let 3 other people take a few shots with it as they gave me some additional ammo. We all had nice groups and zero malfunctions. I would recommend that anyone with an older Walther-have it checked and repaired by a professional. I am totally satisfied spending a few bucks to have a veteran relic 100% safe,reliable and accurate.
 
#41 ·
all of the collectors I know NEVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

shoot their guns...

EVER....

None of them.......

and this is an old boys field who have gas trap garands and Lugers with weird rarity that maybe even Kokalis blushes.


My point....

collectors are collectors....that's it..


shooters are shooters....that's it.

All of the collectors give me the ammo they get from collections because THEY NEVER GO SHOOTING.

Hell, my last assistance was for some weirdo rare M1C model that I helped get on funbroker for the collector.
Came with some LC ammo almost 240 of it in clips and bandoleers.


For Walther collectors..

same thing from the ones I know.

That's why I am happy with my p1....I use it and shoot it and I even got a custom holster made for it in kydex which a local guy did for me.

Love shooting it.

take my point for what it is....

COLLECTORS NEVER SHOULD SHOOT .....

ever....
 
#46 ·
Ya know, this is the never ending story. Wanna shoot it, don't shoot it you'll hurt it, real collectors never shoot 'em. As a note, real collectors DO shoot them, and ones far more valuable then our entry level P-38's (I call them entry level because they don't cost what say, a quad 50 does, or even what one maw deuce does). Yes, they find these rare birds, lovingly care for them, display them, and once in a while go hog wild and live fire them. Be it a civil war cannon or an authentic STG44, they fire them and then show it on the history channel or other media for you and me to see. Me, the closest I'll get to that is my P-38 and my 22lr version of a STG44. I've owned the P-38 for 6 or so years now, give or take, and had to fire it, so I did, about 30 rounds and that was/is it. Now I know what it is like and if I want to do more I'll buy a post war variant but nobody, nobody, is going to prevent me the joy of enjoying those 30 rounds. You don't want to fire yours, fine, don't. You want to, go for it but do so in moderation. These weren't designed to be the accurate sidearms we can use for CCW that we have today, they were last resort weapons for close in combat so don't expect the best groups if you do fire her. Otherwise enjoy her either way you see fit.
 
#48 ·
These weren't designed to be the accurate sidearms we can use for CCW that we have today, they were last resort weapons for close in combat so don't expect the best groups if you do fire her.
It was the phenomenal accuracy of my P-38s that caused me to build one out of a steel WWII frame that I have carried on occasion as my CCW pistol.
 

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#47 ·
If you are going to shoot them, it helps to know what can happen ahead of time so that you don't have a heart attack when the slide cracks or ... whatever. Be careful of the ammo you select. Beyond that ... good luck. Lots of people fire their WWII pistols for years without incident. Others are candidates for heart attacks.
 
#49 ·
If you really must shoot a WW1/WW2-era pistol find one that's already mismatched and has little collector's value. Let the collectors have the ones with original finish and all-matching parts. They all shoot the same anyway, and if your mixmaster breaks something it's no big deal to repair it and keep shooting. But a pistol is only original once. I shoot my M1 Garand all the time because it's already a mismatch of parts, and I have a mixmaster 1911 that I shoot regularly as well. But I would never shoot my 1943 Colt because it's all matching and worth about $3000, and if I cracked the slide on it I'd end up with a $1000 mixmaster by the time I found a replacement.

But of course as a gun owner you can do whatever you want with your property. There was a news story a couple years back of a guy who inherited his father's WW2 M1911A1, and he donated it to a metal artist to melt down and make a piece of anti-gun violence artwork with. Of course it was his pistol, and his right to do whatever he wanted with it. It was still a crying shame to anyone who likes vintage guns.
 
#51 ·
If you really must shoot a WW1/WW2-era pistol find one that's already mismatched and has little collector's value. Let the collectors have the ones with original finish and all-matching parts. They all shoot the same anyway, and if your mixmaster breaks something it's no big deal to repair it and keep shooting. ....
That's like advising me to get laid with an inflatable dummy.

M
 
#55 ·
I am a reloader and in that I would like to believe that the P1 (aluminum framed) pistol can handle the CIP standard load pressures which are higher than the SAAMI Load pressures. The Post WWII German Army used this pistol from 1963, so I have to believe they had no issues concerning the CIP European elevated pressures which exceed American SAAMi +P by 12%. If there was a weak part of the pistol it would be the aluminum frame - but i know of no frame issues. So my conclusion is that even though the P1 has been improved with the P5, still the old P1 is save and reliable for any standard load that exists.

Question: Does anyone know the standard WWII load data
Question: Is there currently any improved 2nd source sights for the P1 / P38?
Question: Would anyone argue against the 7.5gn HS-6 maximum load listed by Speer for their 115gn Goild-Dot bullet?

9x19mm Luger for Walther P1 pistol with 125mm barrel:
CIP International Std 39200 psi (112%)
SAAMI (+P) 38500 psi (110%)
SAAMI Std 35000 psi (100%)
Note PSI = (1.51586 x CUP) - 17902 or CUP = (psi + 17902) / 1.51586
Hodgdon data indicates that 7.0gn HS-6 generates 29,400 CUP or 26,664 psi (76% of SAAMI Std or 68% of CIP European Standard.

Currently I am loading 7.5gn Hodgon HS-6 powder for personal defense with the 115gn Speer PN 26314 Gold Dot and CCI-500 pistol primers. I calculate the muzzle velocity to be approximately 1246 ft/sec (Muzzle Energy 396.4 ft-lbs = 115x1246^2/450436) or +4.6% over std 4"barrel velocities. This load is a real man-stopper.
(ref https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd_lymLzl6a)
The 115gn Gold Dot is favored by many Law Enforcement agencies.

I zero my P1 at 55 yards (50 meters) to achieve -6.1" at 100 yds which is in agreement with the 50 meter front sight height selection used for the Walther P1. I have had no problems with reliability or feeding.
 
#56 ·
Gee47 makes some valid points. The issue is not pressure; the P1 is plenty safe with CIP standard load ammo. The problems arose when the early lighter slide was used with hotter police ammo, which led to a rash of slide cracking, corrected by the introduction of the heavier "fat" slide which made its lock-up stronger and also slowed its velocity to reduce peening and battering.

The steel hex bolt in the frame is simply a hardened cam surface for locking and unlocking; pressure does not have much effect on it, and slide velocity probably doesn't either. Frames without the hex bolt become unserviceable mostly through simple wear, and owners can substantially ameliorate the abrasion by keeping those surfaces clean and well lubricated.

M
 
#57 ·
Very interesting. I would like to get a P1 and reload for it. Some have told me the top cover can easily separate even with low pressure loads. Is there a way to prevent this?

I have always been attracted to the P1/P38 design. I had a nice P1 but sold it to finance another gun purchase as I was told it would not hold up to much shooting. Big mistake.
 
#58 ·
The pistols seem to do OK with Winchester white box, though some find it a bit dirty. I'd get one, load it up, and shoot it to your heart's content. The chances are good that it will work for you. Find one with a hex bolt and fat slide if you can; plenty enough of them around.

And if, for some reason, the top cover blows off, you can always try duct tape. It works for everything else. :)
 
#60 ·
This gets more interesting right along. If, as a previous poster indicated, Walther P1 pistols are manufactured to European CIP standards, then I would ask if our new Walthers, presumably made to the same standard, could then handle +p and NATO pressure ammo?

I will move this discussion to the PPQ and PPX parts of the forum.
 
#61 ·
... I would ask if our new Walthers, presumably made to the same standard, could then handle +p and NATO pressure ammo?
You'll want to real the manuals provided with those pistols, which address the question you pose here. You might want to search the question as well; it's been covered in various threads multiple times.
 
#64 ·
My opinionated opinion...

I agree that the owner should be free to do as he/she pleases with the grizzled warhorse, but eye-wear is always recommended. That busted frame photo above sure makes gloves look like a sensible option, too! Anyway, I shoot Wartime pistols, but only a bit.
One odd thing I ran into that I'd like to share. I had a postwar aluminium framed model with a WW 2 slide complete with Waffen Amt stamps. The French had ground off a lot of metal in an apparent effort to make the "iggle" go away. They then roll-marked the Manurhin (sp.?) emblem on the thing. Eventually, the slide cracked at the lug slot, although the gun still worked, but I saw metal powder on the back of the slide so I stopped shooting.* I have just slapped on a new slide--after waiting 20 years--and hope to fire it up soon. When I cycle the slide everything feels smooth, so what the hey? I'll let you know what happens.
*It's that 88 IQ of mine kicking in!
 
#66 ·
Hey Folks,
Finally got to the range with the parts gun (see above, Pp. 2 of Opinionated Opinion). The new slide worked well, cycling smoothly, no cracks, runs, errors. I only ran one box through it, but I've had it apart and everything looks great. I'll do a serious cleaning tomorrow whilst the wife is at work; she hates the smell of Hoppes #9.
The other partner in todays shooting was the new-to-me Spreewerke. Worked much more reliably with the new recoil springs, but I am still getting some failures to fully chamber the round. I think the feed ramp is a little rough, at least it feels so when I slide the narrow knife blade of the Swiss Army up it, and the ramp is collecting copper from the noses of the Fiocchi (means "bow" in Italian) rounds running through it. Time for some jeweler's rouge, I guess. Overall, the pistol has a much higher level of finish than most of the photos I see online.
I used today's outing to test some mags that I had bought from a surplus dealer. They work okay, but most are unhappy holding a full eight rounds--seven seems to be the preferred number. It may be a break-in thing. I don't lube mags as I am afraid of oil creeping into the primers and rendering them inert. What do you guys use?
Well, any day you can hit the range with two P-38's is a good day. Take care, all!
 
#67 ·
Good report and update, Ritter; thanks for sharing.

I'd love to see photos of your new Spreewerk, especially one that looks better than most of the ones we spot in online photos. Given the nature of the factory's work during the war, it makes me wonder whether it received a refinish somewhere along the line.

Have you thoroughly cleaned the interior of the newly acquired mags? Just a thought ...
 
#69 ·
Dang, now I gotta dig the old slide out of the basement and check it out. As for the Spreewerke, it is rough enough (I think) to be original, but still pretty good. I have seen some lulus online! If I can ever find the right cord to allow my camera to mate with my computer, I 'll be able to post pix. It's rough being an analogue guy in a digital world!
Thanks for the input, though.
 
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