CCP Failure to Feed and Failure to Eject
I apologize for the long post up front but I wanted to detail the following information as unambiguously as possible in trying to get to the bottom of this problem with the CCP.
My girlfriend of 21 years bought a CCP for three main reasons. As her CCW, the slide is easy to rack and she absolutely loves the way it fits her hand perfectly. She also likes the idea that it has a safety on it.
But, she has had FTF and FTE problems since day one. I have a Q5 which has never had either of these issues, plus I have personally fired close to 100 rounds with the CCP and have the same problems so it is definitely not a limp wristing situation causing these issues.
We are going to the range tomorrow and will try running some Winchester 147 T&D rounds as suggested by another user on this forum that claimed the 147’s totally solved his problem with the same issues.
I worry that if she ever ends up in a situation where she has to use it to defend herself she could run into the same problem which could end up being deadly even thought she knows how to clear it if you have the time.
The only thing I have done to the gun is to polish the feed ramp to a high gloss finish in the hopes that it might help. We will know tomorrow at the range.
All this said, I spent several hours going over every aspect of the CCP and its design. Although I have no problem with the basic design concept of the fixed barrel aspect I have discovered what I think ‘could’ be a design problem with the magazines.
Here is what I found and I am only speculating here but after much hand testing and carefully viewing every aspect I could see these are my results with eight rounds in the magazine and the slide locked in the reward position and the magazine inserted.
1. The top round in the magazine, with the other rounds pushing it up against the curved top of the magazine sides is aimed upward at approximately ten degrees in relation to the rest of the rounds beneath it and appears to be ready to go into the breach. All is well at this point.
2. Now, holding onto the slide and pulling it back to release the slide lock and slowly letting it come forward just enough to begin to touch the top round the first thing you notice is that as it catches the very top of the back of the round it immediately tips the round downward against the next round which now puts the top round aiming approximately ten degrees downward effectively aiming the round at the very base of the feed ramp.
[I have tested the same above action with my Q5 magazines. The PPQ mags have all rounds flush against each other so the above action can not happen and all rounds come off the magazine absolutely straight and slide beautifully right into the breach.]
3. Still holding onto the slide as the front of the round touches the very base of the feed ramp I can now actually let go of the slide and the round will be stuck there jammed against the very bottom of the feed ramp. At that point the action is locked in that position.
I can tap the back of the slide and the round will jump into the breach and will do the same thing if I release the slide fully after pulling it back to release the slide lock as expected but it still feels like the round hits way to low on the feed ramp
I have photos of all of the above conditions.
I would ask that any CCP owner reading this do the above test and see if you don’t get the same results and report back with your results.
Also take a look at a loaded CCP magazine and notice how the rounds beneath the top round are aimed in a downward direction in relation to the top round. You will also notice that there is a gap of about 2~3 millimeters between the front end of the casing of the top round and the second round. Holding the magazine in one hand press down on the front of the top round and you will see that it rotates downward against the second round.
This is what happens the moment that the slide contacts the top of the top round to move it forward to chamber it. It rotates the front of it downward instead of forward causing situation I described above when it will actually lock the slide open with the round holding it so if released gently.
Also, if you look at the front of the magazine you will notice the cutout semi-round notch at the top. When the top round is pushed forward by the slide the tip of the bullet actually comes in contact with that curved notch before it touches the feed ramp and the front edge of the cashing can actually catch behind the notch in the magazine causing a hangup of the round against the magazine.
I surmise that this could be a problem with the magazine follower holding all rounds below the top round at the wrong downward angle causing/allowing the top round to tip downward into the gap between the top round and the round below it when the slide begins to move it forward.
Looking forward to hearing from any other CCP owner who has tried the above and found the same situation occurring.
If everyone finds the same situation occurring then Walther needs to know and possibly come up with a solution to it.. Could this be the source of the problems of FTF and FTE that the CCP seems to have experienced since day one.
P.S. I have double checked all of the above actions against my Q5 which is probably the same as all other PPQ’s and their magazines and none of the above situations exist. All rounds on the Q5 slide straight out of the magazine and directly into the chamber. Could be the reasons that FTF situations rarely if ever occur with a PPQ.
Ask a range officer to test fire it as well using the heavier round. If you have another trusted brand of ammo try that as well. If the failures repeat.....send it to Ft Smith.
Girlfriend of 21 years......:)
Try the following: Take the magazine apart and thoroughly clean it. Make absolutely sure the magazine spring is correctly oriented; check the factory exploded view if necessary. Next, try some 115 grain FMJ Winchester, Remington or Federal ammo.
If that doesn't help, get rid of it. Buy her a revolver.
I think most magazines do exactly what MaxClass is observing with regard to shoving the nose down. Loaded rounds sit nose up. As the bottom of the breech rail shoves a round forward in a magazine the top, rear edge of the rim is the first part to contact the rail. Drag against the magazine lips and follower or lower rounds causes the nose to drop by design as the rear of the cartridge whether .22 or center fire must slide up the face of the breech, under the extractor.....as the nose of the round is being fed up the feed ramp and into the chamber. A round won't feed into the chamber if it is slanting and the nose should not hit under the bottom edge of the ramp. This is not to say that a round might not get hung up and stop the slide when it contacts the feed ramp just that the nose should be on the ramp, not under it or half on it. Remember the CCP has a weaker recoil spring than other 9mm pistols due to the gas piston. And while checking magazine/round feed in slow motion by hand might be of some benefit it is not how the magazine works when the pistol is fired, parts are moving very fast, the stack of rounds is bouncing and moving up under recoil....etc.
I would do as Mike suggested.....clean the mags and try again. If this is happening with several magazines I would send it back to Ft. Smith. Perhaps it is a magazine issue, perhaps a recoil spring issue...perhaps both.....then I would take note of the history of the pistol and consider if it was one I would want my girlfriend to carry. 1917
I've not had any experience with this particular pistol, but if it's new perhaps some break-in will solve the issue. If it's used, springs are cheap - I'd consider replacing both mag and recoil springs. I'm guessing you already know this, but lubrication is one of the primary reasons pistols malfunction. Just my 2˘.
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Yes, girlfriend of 21 years. Works for us.
Meanwhile as MGMike suggests the magazines have been taken apart cleaned and reassembled apparently making no difference whatsoever. We have even numbered (1 & 2) the magazines to see if the FTF’s happen more in one than the other. No noticeable difference at all.
pj_49 posted two different single stack magazines photos showing the gap between the top and second round. This is indeed that same as that with the CCP mags. This gap is the cause of the top round being shoved nose down as it is moved forward by the slide.
1917-1911M mentioned that most magazines push the top round nose down and I can’t dispute that. Also that the nose of the round hits the bottom of the feed ramp. Can’t dispute that either and that it might work slightly differently under actual firing conditions.
But, with the CCP the round actually hits on part of the flat just below the feed ramp. If it always hits some part of the ramp that would be different especially with a hollow point SD round. As mentioned you can slowly let the slide come forward by hand the the round will hang up against the very bottom of the feed ramp nine out of ten times.
As for it being anything close to natural to inject a round intentionally aimed nose down is off the charts of logic as I see it. Not that comparing my Q5 against the CCP but the Q5 (and all PPQ’s) injects the rounds straight ahead without the slightest nose down attitude and they operated flawlessly as I have never had a FTF with the Q5 (fingers crossed) so something in that design definitely works.
I had also mentioned that the round, once tipped nose down actually scraps against the round notch of the magazine with the shell casing actually snagging on it. Something not right about that part of the design.
Maybe that notch needs to be taken down some so that the injected round never touches it.
To SkippySanchez: As for break-in the CCP has probably had close to 800 rounds thru it. It is cared for and throughly cleaned after each outing using CLP and lubricated according to Walther’s recommendations. A new return spring might be in the offing if nothing else seems to help. The compression cylinder is cleaned but not lubricated as per Walther's instructions.
This one was part of the recall and was sent in and returned so updated with whatever they did to it.
We both love the overall look and feel of the CCP and it fits her hands perfectly and conceals easily. I just don’t want her to ever be caught in a situation, like at work, where she might have to defend herself only to find that she is only able to get the one round in the chamber off and have it jam.
There has to be something that can be done to make this gun the “Concealed Carry Pistol” it was designed to be. I seriously doubt that the magazine spring is the problem. Many CCP users claim theirs works just great for them so why the difference with this one.
Didn’t make it to the range today as it just a rainy dismal day in Vegas.
Thanks guys for all the great input and ideas. Somehow the answer to the dependability of the CCP will be found and we can all spend less time trying to solve problems that shouldn’t exist.
Lastly will try the 147 grain rounds as one user found that completely solved their problem with the CCP. I imagine a 147 might just make sure the slide makes it’s way all the way back. It is not a limp writing problem as it happens when I fire it and I’m 6 foot and 195 pounds and can hold my own.
P.S. I would hate to have her end up with a Glock 43. I’m going to see what she thinks of the “Creed” to see if that might work for her. It seems to be getting good reviews. She also has no problems like those of the CCP with the Glock 19 or the Q5.
Sending it back to Ft. Smith is a waste of time and effort even if they pay the shipping, except maybe as a selling point when you finally decide to get jettison that POS, if you leave it unfired after they tell you there's nothing wrong with it. Your conscience will be clear.
Don't be concerned about their conscience. It doesn't bother them at all.
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