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Old 01-11-2017, 10:40 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by chandler5566 View Post

The bottom line is that the closer you can approximate actual real life conditions the better prepared you will be for the unlikely event you are forced to respond to an actual life threatening attack. At that moment it will not matter which recoil spring/rod you have.....your training will take care of that.

I understand the desire to have equipment that can shave hundredths of a second from performance on a range and will not attempt to minimize that. What I am trying to do is point out that repetitive quality training can reduce the need for that equipment to a negligible level.
I agree with the top quoted paragraph completely and advocate for that type of training. I trust nothing in my statements on this thread or elsewhere have ever indicated otherwise.

However if you can find something that improves the tool you are using even slightly, well that might give you just the added edge needed for a happy outcome. So yes IMHO that equipment might be important.

Night sights, guide rods and grips don't make one proficient, proper training and proper reinforcement of that training by frequent practice make one proficient.
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Last edited by olsoul; 01-11-2017 at 10:44 AM.
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:35 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by olsoul View Post
I trust nothing in my statements on this thread or elsewhere have ever indicated otherwise.

However if you can find something that improves the tool you are using even slightly, well that might give you just the added edge needed for a happy outcome.

You have always supported the importance of adequate and proper training!

You are absolutely correct re tools. The point I attempted to make is that it may not be the tool that makes the improvement....it could be the individual and what they perceive the tool has done.....sometimes identified as the placebo effect. If the end result is an improvement then whether it's placebo or real it makes no difference. That's just one reason I was (and continue) searching for objective evidence into whether the recoil systems like Sprinco, DPM and others actually reduce muzzle motion. Bill (BT) and I just had a lengthy discussion on that subject and how he might proceed with testing his systems.
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Old 01-12-2017, 01:22 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by olsoul View Post
...

For me it is that slight added weight on the front which allows faster target acquisition and reacquisition.

...
There is one usually overlooked downside to adding weight to the front end by using a steel or tungsten (or depleted uranium, or whatever) recoil spring guide.

That guide --and that weight-- is not rigidly held within the pistol. It is held in place by the recoil spring, and to the extent that the recoil spring compresses from the inertia of recoil, it allows the guide rod to bounce. This occurs in much the same way as an anti-bolt bounce device in a machine gun, by delivering a slightly-delayed inertial "tap" to shut the bolt and prevent misfires. In a semi-auto pistol this "tap" is delivered to the frame seat where the rear end of the rod rests when the gun is assembled. I have seen steel frames of prototype pistols heavily battered at that point from such bouncing. The problem goes away when the guide is lightened, either by being fabricated from hollow tubing instead of a solid rod, or by being made from lightweight plastic instead of steel.

It's a fact that most manufacturers keep that component as light as possible.

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Old 01-12-2017, 02:55 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by chandler5566 View Post
You have always supported the importance of adequate and proper training!

You are absolutely correct re tools. The point I attempted to make is that it may not be the tool that makes the improvement....it could be the individual and what they perceive the tool has done.....sometimes identified as the placebo effect. If the end result is an improvement then whether it's placebo or real it makes no difference. That's just one reason I was (and continue) searching for objective evidence into whether the recoil systems like Sprinco, DPM and others actually reduce muzzle motion. Bill (BT) and I just had a lengthy discussion on that subject and how he might proceed with testing his systems.
Well if you want to look at my first video on this (a new one is coming) with p99 and all mentioned guide rods vs a S&W 3914 for comparison of metal vs polymer. In slow motion you can see the differences. In real life I did notice the differences, as I commented to my cameraman. Would someone else notice it maybe but maybe not. My camera guy did the comparison for himself he noticed the differences. So it makes a difference, however is the extra cost vs benefit really worth it? I shoot all of the rods and they all work, the difference is the DPM for example makes shooting more rounds less fatiguing and that equals more fun.
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Old 01-12-2017, 08:19 AM   #45
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That guide --and that weight-- is not rigidly held within the pistol. It is held in place by the recoil spring, and to the extent that the recoil spring compresses from the inertia of recoil, it allows the guide rod to bounce.
I had read something about guide rod striking the frame in an article addressing increased weight but you make the issue very clear. Now, out of curiosity and my natural tendency to simplify solutions, why the hell don't the manufacturers design a slot to "capture" the end of the rod and prevent it from bouncing?
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Old 01-12-2017, 08:56 AM   #46
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Thanks for the insight Mike.
I just broke down my weapons that have metal RSAs, inspecting the barrels, frames and slides. These weapons have had at least 2K rounds through them since the metal RSAs wee installed, most a lot more and I see no undue wear on any of the parts.

However just because there is no undue wear yet doesn't mean that will be the case in the future. I'll be keeping this in mind from now on when I do my inspections.

Thanks.
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In a man-to-man fight, the winner is he who has one more round in his magazine-Erwin Rommel




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Old 01-12-2017, 10:38 AM   #47
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My PPQ's with metal RSA's and over 2 k rounds don't show any undue wear, it's all ways a good idea to inspect every thing when cleaning.
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:54 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by chandler5566 View Post
I had read something about guide rod striking the frame in an article addressing increased weight but you make the issue very clear. Now, out of curiosity and my natural tendency to simplify solutions, why the hell don't the manufacturers design a slot to "capture" the end of the rod and prevent it from bouncing?
Probably to avoid complicating the assembly/reassembly procedure. Easier and cheaper just to lighten the rod.

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Old 01-12-2017, 12:56 PM   #49
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Well if you want to look at my first video on this (a new one is coming) ...
Link? Where is this video?
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Old 01-13-2017, 02:11 AM   #50
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Here is the link

https://youtu.be/PtHfO7rco1Y

I used a P99 .
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