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Bond PPK Manufacturer

14K views 63 replies 27 participants last post by  Asp9mm 
#1 ·
I am so sorry if this has already been asked. I tried searching about 10 different ways and for about 2 hours total, and I cannot find any information on this.

So for the sake not just having a "James Bond" gun, but "the James Bond" gun; I am trying to figure out which manufacturers were responsible for certain ppks in the movies.

I know the new PPK/s is a S&W in Skyfall. And according to the Manurhin website they made the guns in 18/23 of the movies as shown in the link below.

We are proud of - Manurhin

It is not that I don't believe them, but every time I see a PPK in the movies (including those listed), I never see the huge MANURHIN marketing all over. Seeing real Manurhins, it looks like every single Walther Banner is replaced with the Manurhin cog and label. So were the ones used in the movies really Manurhins? Did they somehow switch out the logos or did Hollywood specifically commission Manurhin to make them with Walther logos instead?

Thank you all so much. My first two pistols are actually going to be the PPQ and PPS, but just to satisfy the movie collector in me as well, I want to get as accurate as possible when I buy the PPK.
 
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#3 ·
My first two pistols are actually going to be the PPQ and PPS, but just to satisfy the movie collector in me as well, I want to get as accurate as possible when I buy the PPK.
In general the movies used a Walther branded PPK, but in the first movie where Bond actually was given a Walther they handed him a PP model and just called it a PPK. I would also expect in all but Skyfall the PPK used was in 32acp/7.65mm. Its not like they called out the caliber after the first movie. Its also the more enjoyable round to shoot from the gun.

When you read the thread pointed out by Searcher you will find that most of the movies were made during the partnership between Walther and mahurhin so that would be the era of gun to be looking for.
 
#5 ·
From after WW2 until the 80's the guns were made in France by Manurhin and some were marked with their name and some were shipped over the river to Walther in Germany for roll marking and final finishing. the ones shipped across the river had no Manurhin markings.
 
#6 ·
Well, even on that site, it says

"Walther PPK became famous as a James Bond´s weapon. Most of these weapons, which appeared in the film itself or in promotional materials to the film, were manufactured directly in MANURHIN. In particular, Walther PPK could be seen in the episodes as follows:"

Most, but not all....looks like that page is half marketing MANURHIN's products, half marketing the PPK in general.

A few of the shots I've seen also have what looks like just about all markings removed from the slide...not sure if this is just for cosmetic reasons, but it does look pretty neat, imo.
 
#7 ·
I read the page and that was my main question. Were there many Manurhins that were made without the HUGE Manurhin brand on them, even on the grip? Because every Bond PPK I see has Walther all over it.

Every time I see a Manurhin on the auctions, they usually are MANURHIN marketed with practically no Walther banner. If I am going to pay $1000-$3000 for a pistol, I want it to be just right!
 
#8 ·
Well what is correct depends of which movie. In Dr No its not a PPK at all but a Walther PP and in some scenes its not not even a Walther (FN Browning with the silencer). Unless you have actual photos from the prop master who is to say what is real. Its accepted the guns are Walther marked PPK's made during the partnership with Manurhin.

The Ian Fleming books done after the move from a Beretta 25acp are "Walther PPK 7.65mm".

One thing for sure in Skyfall at least one of the guns was a S&W made Walther, but many other times it was hard to see when it was not the palm print model. Those could have been older props that were pre S&W.

In the end I don't think you are ever going to know 100% which model was used. Some shots could have been fake guns which is done a lot in movies these days.
 
#10 ·
The Ian Fleming books done after the move from a Beretta 25acp are "Walther PPK 7.65mm".
Not quite. The first movie was Dr. No (1962). The novel Dr. No came out in 1958, well before Harry Saltzman acquired the rights to the series in 1961. It is in the 1958 Dr. No novel that Bond is forced to surrender his Beretta for the Walther after the Beretta snagged in his holster in From Russia with Love and he very nearly died as a direct result.
 
#9 ·
With gun laws and the difficulties of controlling 'inventory', I can see merit to using fakes when possible.
Too, why chance barking up an expensive pistol in fight scenes or other events that can lead to drops on cement? I realize that, in the context of what modern movies cost, it would be a drop in the bucket, unless the gun was simply difficult to replace...which is sometimes the case.
I also realize some are non-guns, or converted to not fire live rounds, for safety and liability issues.
Moon
 
#12 ·
With gun laws and the difficulties of controlling 'inventory', I can see merit to using fakes when possible.
......
I also realize some are non-guns, or converted to not fire live rounds, for safety and liability issues.
Moon
Also in the US for actors that are Felons and can't use a real gun they have to make non-firing fakes.... There is a big company in California that supplies studios guns and fakes for movies.
 
#13 ·
I definitely know there are props and then there are real weapons. This is just like swords in movies. Most of the time, swords are made out of light weight aluminum rather high carbon steel, but for close ups and promotional shots "hero" props would be used that were usually the real deal. This is probably no different in the bond films, usually a resin/plastic gun for moving and fighting, but the real PPK for close ups ect.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Bond films have often substituted other brands to stand in for the PPK.

The novels, written by Ian Fleming had Bond carrying a "Walther PPK in 7.65 m/m". Fleming died in 1963 and never described Bond's Walther other than what I put in quotes. So one could pretend any pre-1963 PPK - pre war, wartime or post war Manuhrin/Walther is Bond's pistol.

Film wise Bond (as others have noted) has carried a Walther PP a Browning 1910 and even a Walther P5 as stand in PPK's. Some of the PPK's were even .380 models.

In the current film Bond is issued what appears to be a S&W blued PPK/S - but in the sole close-up only the Walther banner is visable on the slide. So, it's possible its a non-gun replica. Whatever it is - its been converted to fire blanks.

Bottom line ... while most of us like James Bond movies, they are only movies. A Walther PPK is a fine pistol and deserves to be appreciated and treated as such.
 
#16 ·
Like I originally said, I definitely appreciate the gun. This is the start of a long search for me. My first two have already had the funds aside for a PPQ and PPS. The PPK for me is to have the closest thing to a movie prop as possible, while still being functional. I am initially a sword collector and while I like the stainless steel replicas, nothing beats a hand made high carbon string steel sword in feeling. The PPK I'll buy will be a .32 blued, from either pre-WWII or Manurhin, I just wasn't sure if any of the Manurhin ones didn't have the Manurhin cog on them.
 
#17 ·
Most of the post war German ones were made by Manuhrin, just towed across the river to Germany and finished/proofed there.

I have found all PPK pistols to be a scarce item ... so if you find a good one - buy it.
 
#19 · (Edited)
I don't believe for a second that they were Manurhin PPKs in the Bond movies. Pictures of the actual props as well as pausing HD always show the Walther banner on grips and slides. You're not going to find a Manurhin logo anywhere. Wishful thinking on their part.

Now I do believe Manurhin made some guns (parts maybe?) specifically for Walther and that ended up with the Walther brand but that doesn't really count. Ruger makes frames for other manufacturers but you wouldn't call those pistols Rugers by any stretch of the imagination.

I had a picture of the real Dr No prop Walther PP that was sold a few years ago. It wore Pachmayr grips at that stage in its life. If I can come up with it I'll post it. But you're not going to find Manurhin on that slide either.

Here it is

 
#20 ·
It wouldn't matter a whit to me whether it is actual Walther or French.
They are both excellent pistols. Grab the Manurhin anywhere you can find one. Today they are actually more scarce than a Walther.
The Manurhin was made and actually was sent to Germany and restamped Walther.
Look into the history.
 
#23 ·
Looked into the history. Found this from a thread referenced on page one post #2 of this particular thread. This quote sounds familiar:

I was under the assumption that Manurhin in France produced all the post-war PPK, PPK/S that come from Europe. Parts were sent to Germany to be roll-marked and finished. Hence PPK, PPK/S marked Manurhin and one marked Walther-Ulm are one and the same...

And Mike's reply:

... a common misconception that is rapidily attaining the status of "truth" through internet repetition by people who read it somewhere.


 
#26 ·
Looked into the history. Found this from a thread referenced on page one post #2 of this particular thread. This quote sounds familiar:

I was under the assumption that Manurhin in France produced all the post-war PPK, PPK/S that come from Europe. Parts were sent to Germany to be roll-marked and finished. Hence PPK, PPK/S marked Manurhin and one marked Walther-Ulm are one and the same...

And Mike's reply:

... a common misconception that is rapidily attaining the status of "truth" through internet repetition by people who read it somewhere.
But of course Mike knows better than I do.
I felt the Manurhin in France was indeed sent to Germany for a Walther stamping on all French parts.

I am obviously mistaken.
 
#24 ·
Agreed!
Manhurin may have produced the forgings but it was just not a simple matter of taking them across the river and roll marking!
Anyone that has any experience with German products be it MB, BMW, Leica or whatever has a good sense of the effort supplied by German workers in manufacturing a product and testing. German industry used and still uses parts from many sources outside German but if the final production is in Germany then it can be stamped Made in Germany and will be an excellent product.
MY Walther PPK 7.65mm (1965) was Made in Germany and from my experience in actually handling and purchasing Walthers, the Walther marked are clearly better than Manhurin. With the demand for PPK's increasing, and the supply of Walther's drying up, the Manhurin are starting to look like good buys and if it works then its good.
I purchased my Walther PPK 7.65 from a guy standing by an empty table at a Gun Show many years ago with a small brown box on the table that I could identify at 30 ft.
$260, box and all, 98% condition. He did mention it was James Bond's gun but that didn't matter al all those days.
Today, we go nuts over a firearm used by a fictional character.
But beauty is in the eye of the beholder and the Walther PPK's just look better to me.-Dick
 
#25 ·
...Today, we go nuts over a firearm used by a fictional character...
I guess that I just want to make it clear that I am not one of those people who just saw a Bond movie and was thought, "Wow, I really have to get a gun and while I am at it, I have to be just like James Bond."

Since I usually have larger pockets in my pants (many of which I have made bigger myself for pocket guns), I would love a PPK as my B-U-G to my PPQ or PPS. But we all have choices when it comes to the PPK: S&W, Intrarms, Manurhin stamped, Manurhin with Walther stamp, and a plethora of German made ones. Given that I intended on spending $800+ on a really good quality PPK, I just thought, "Well, while I am at it, let's kill two birds with one stone and just buy the closest Bond gun I can get to satisfy my need for a heavy B-U-G as well as my movie memorabilia collection."
 
#28 ·
.
For political and marketing reasons all PP, PPK, and PPK/S pistols dated prior to 1985 were manufactured at the Manurhin factory in France.
.
The slides for "Walther" marked guns were finished in Germany and proofed at Ulm.
.
About 1985 Walther began to manufacture the entire guns in Ulm, Germany.
.
So a 1968 Walther PPK was made in France and finished in Germany. The quality and performance is essentially the same whether the slide is stamped Walther or Manurhin. I own both Walther and Manurhin PP and PPK/S models. Anyone who thinks the Walther is inherently "better" sees something I don't.
 
#43 ·
This corresponds to what I thought I knew, but I really don't want to argue with Mike on the subject.
I've told the tale here of the Manurhin-marked PPK/s .22 that I owned briefly before selling it to a buddy; side by side with my Walther-marked version, I concur, anyone seeing a difference was seeing something I could not.
It was interesting to have both guns for comparison, but that wasn't reason enough to keep the Manurhin.
There does seem to be an argument about the relative value of both guns; minty Walther-marked .22s often are crowding $1K on Gunbroker, but I was hard pressed to find any solid numbers for a Manurhin-marked one.
Moon
 
#29 ·
I definitely do not think there is a quality difference between a Manurhin proofed slide and a Walther, but for my first PPK, I just wanted the Walther banner for esthetics, just like a blued gun. Heck if this was about a stainless steel one, I'd simply buy S&W.
 
#30 ·
S&W/Walther missed a huge marketing oppertunity here. Daniel Craig effectively uses a PPK/S throughout the movie, who after seeing this movie wouldn't want to purchase one? But maybe the upcoming divorce of S&W and Walther had something to do with it? Huge failure not having blued PPKs or PPK/Ss available right now.

I think it's a good thing that Walther will be taking over their own marketing again.
 
#38 ·
I have read and studied the Bond thrillers for decades. But I am far less fond of the film franchise.

After so many years I find it a little fustrating to see these Bond/Walther threads pop up - especially after a new film has been released.

If your talking movies, the production company rents firearms from various prop houses. They get several of each type for the film, real guns, blank guns, rubber guns et al. In one of the Dalton Bond's for instance, he used a pre-war PPK with Sile grips. Just because you see the legend on the slide in one scene doesn't mean Bond's gun was German made. It's just as likely to be rubber. Other than owning a film used prop - there is no "Bond PPK"!

Walther doesn't pay tribute to the film company when they use a PPK or P99, like Coke, beer companies, Sony or Omega does. The PPK is iconic Bond and that's why they stick with it, just as they do with the Aston Martin DB5. Walther does benefit from the publicity - but it's never been part of an offical James Bond marketing campaign.

The irony is that Ian Fleming, Bond's creator picked the Walther for Bond after reading an article on small automatics in the NRA's American Rifleman magazine. He had little or no practical expierence with the pistol, he just liked the name.

So these days thanks to film lore, and that "brick through plate glass" business from the Dr. No script, the PPK lives in films in the same way as Dirty Harry's .44 Magnum. Want to wade through alot of internet BS, stop by the Smith & Wesson Forum and read through one of the hundreds of threads on Dirty Harry's revolver - it'll give you a headache.

I found out long ago that the PP & PPK are really nice, quality pistols. They are pretty solidly designed and stylish looking. If you're looking for top quality collectable, "old fashioned" pocket pistols - they're great. But please, the PPK .32 and the PPK/S .380 deserve better than be nothing more than a "fan purchase" to be bought up every time a new flick appears, and then talked up on the internet to so they conform to a fantasy.

Yeah, I ranting. But I really like Walthers, and Bond novels. But trying to lump them together in a serious way is just not possible - remember Bond is cool - but he has always been pretend. A PPK is a serious firearm, buying one will not make you 007!
 
#40 ·
So these days thanks to film lore, and that "brick through plate glass" business from the Dr. No script, the PPK lives in films in the same way as Dirty Harry's .44 Magnum. Want to wade through alot of internet BS, stop by the Smith & Wesson Forum and read through one of the hundreds of threads on Dirty Harry's revolver - it'll give you a headache.
But a lot of our interest is because of movies we see and enjoy. After inheriting two beautiful, old S&W revolvers from my father-in-law, and deciding to add to the collection, guess what I looked for and bought ? A Model 29 with a 6" barrel. It makes me smile when I shoot it, the same way my 7.65mm PPK does. The only difference is the soundtrack in my head.
I'll let you figure that one out yourself ...
 
#39 ·
If what you say is true, then Bond's iconic car would not be an Aston Martin DB5. In the book Goldfinger he drove a DB3S, and for most of the series he drove a vintage early '30s Bentley with Vickers supercharger installed. And his watch? Rolex; not Omega.

Oh, and, by the way, Ian Fleming switched Bond from a .25 Beretta to the PPK because of a letter he received from a Major Boothroyd who objected to the original choice in weapons. His name was later used by Fleming for the fictional "Armorer," who in the films morphed into "Q."
 
#41 ·
When I saw the Bond films I new he was undergunned as an agent. However, he was not undergunned in style.

A .32 through the head or neck or sternum (heart/lungs) is powerful enough to do the job. Save the .44 Magnum for shooting across a football field to maybe hit a leg and down the antagonist.

A handgun is always limited compared to a rifle of almost any caliber. A shotgun is only good to 30 yards or so no matter what buckshot or birdshot is in it.

The handgun is a sidearm for close encounter. Caliber and power mean nothing compared to where the bullet (even if a .22 or .25) lands.
 
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