PPK Reliability Issues

[austinmc62]

Hi all. I am new to the forum and this is my first post. I have owned both Interarms and S&W PPK/S models and would like to comment on reliability complaints that people have with this weapon. It appears in reading this forum that most posters have lost sight of what the PP pistols are or were designed to be. Starting with the end in mind, I believe that a PP type pistol is perfectly reliable if it will shoot 7 consecutive shots out of two magazines from a clean condition without malfunction with quality ball ammunition.
Now allow me to explain. The PP pistols were designed in Europe in the early 30’s for police service. They later mutated into side arms for Nazi party leaders and Gestapo officers. With that in mind, let’s look at the conditions they were expected to be subjected too. The PP pistols were carried in full leather enclosed holsters that contained an extra magazine holder. So therefore straight off the bat they were thought to not to need to exceed 2 full magazines at any one time and to be carried in a dirt, dust free environment, (enclosed holster). Europe in the time of the PP’s creation was not exactly crime ridden with gun violence. So I doubt that multiple magazine engagements against other armed persons were ever anticipated in its design. A PP pistol has a lot of the internal workings exposed at the top of the grips and bottom of the slide area which would attract dirt and grime and foul it up if it were subjected to the type of exposure say that a Glock can regularly take. I doubt in the time that they were designed, that the average civilian police officer or even every minor Nazi party official that carried one has ever fired more than 200 rounds through these pistols in the lifetime that they had them. And that they were cleaned after firing the two magazines that were carried with them. Also these pistols were not expected to fire cheap ball ammunition or hollow point ammunition that has an opening in the nose the size of an ashtray. If you expected to use this gun in a trench as an officer, while your troop’s fire away repelling an attack, you are very unrealistic.
I say all that to say this. No matter if you have a German made, an Interarms or a Smith, if you can shoot 14 shots of quality ball ammunition between cleanings without malfunction, the pistol is doing the job it was designed for. If you expected to shoot hundreds of rounds of modern ultra large hollow point bullets through it and never clean it, or a variety of cheap off brand ammunition, then you would be better served with something like a Glock. You aren’t going to be effective using a screwdriver as a hammer.
I hope that all of you enjoy your PP, PPK, and PPK/S for the purpose it was intended for as I do mine. I enjoy the forum and look forward to reading the contents here.

[Martin]

Between a Walther PP and a Glock there are more than 50 years of experience. It's the same comparing a Ford T-model to a Chrysler Voyager.

The PP was a milestone at it's time, the Glock at it's time too. Remember, thousends of policemen round the world confided in their PP until the 80th. But the time goes by.

The PP series was designed as a self defence weapon and a 50 years old PP still does. Let's have a look, what's about a Glock in 50 years...

[autonut]

I am not a "heavy" shooter...more-or-less a casual shooter. I rarely feed either my Ranger 380 PPK/S, or my Smith 32 PPK/S-1 more than a box full at an outing and have had very few issues with either. I have other range-guns that I shoot the crap out of, but I am not concerned when I carry any of my Walters for the purpose intended. I am pretty confident they will all go bang anytime I need them to.

If you shoot any gun long enough without routine maintenance and let it get dirty enough you're asking for trouble. I don't know how many rounds any of my Walthers will shoot without gumming-up, but I have never reached that point. I am pretty-sure I could run a hundred-or-more through each, which will be way more than I needed for any gun-battle. Me or BG would have won the contest long before that.

[halfmoonclip]

I think the OP is selling the Walther a bit short; personal experience with the .32 ACP iteration leads me to believe that they will tolerate quite a bit of shooting with nothing but routine lubrication.
He does make a point about German guns and cleanliness; remember only the Deutschers were arrogant enough to assume a Swiss-watch gun like the Luger could be made to function in the trenches in France; a gun that required a tool to facilitate filling its magazines.
It would be interesting to see what the projected service life was for the PP series...
Moon

[DrE]

Originally Posted by 'moon

It would be interesting to see what the projected service life was for the PP series...

Given the folk who were issued the weapon, two magazines' worth. JMHO.

...but the typical Teutonic proclivity for craftsmanship gave us the "leftovers" for posterity.

[Pilotsteve]

A very interesting and well thought-out post by Austinmc. He's probably right in most regards. I know from reading many Luftwaffe fighter pilots carried a PPK in their flight vests. It was (and still is) an excellent tool intended for a very specific purpose. It was not made for the dirt & grime of field warfare - that was the P38's job. Both surely accomplished their design goals.

As far as reliability over time, my record is six boxes of Independence cheap range ball ammunition in one sitting. That's 300 rounds, and I had only one jam due to a case of serious limp-wrist (a hot casing bounced off something and ended up in my shoe just as I was firing the next round - I flinched a bit to say the least!) Mine's an Interarms PPK 9mm kurz and it's very reliable and accurate. It would be an utter sweetheart if it weren't so rappy to shoot. I was red-palmed and had a nice hole into the back of my thumb from the tang after those six boxes. But oh so worth it.

-Pilotsteve

[austinmc62]

I just wanted to add if I was not clear, that I love the PP series. I am just making the point that they were designed for a very specific purpose of personal self defense. And I think that they do a great job of it for the last 80 years.

It's just when I hear things like "The minimum reliable amount of ammo I must fire is 500 rounds without a misfire to prove the pistol is reliable..." I believe that the point of the weapon has been forgotten.

I was making the point that 500 rounds was an astronomical number of rounds to be fired from a close defense pistol in the 1930's. When you start talking about that type of round count it sounds like your talking about a SHTF or Zombie Apocalypse gun more like an AR-15 or AK-47. A role that the selection of a Walther PP series pistol for would be highly questionable.

I think the intended role is more like PilotSteve's scenario. DrE, I believe your intended lifespan estimate is right on target! Halfmoonclip, i believe that the Walther exceeds the expectations of the original designers and user's. I just think you can not expect it to perform like a modern large caliber military pistol. It is not fair to the Walther to expect that. And I agree with your cleaning assesments. Autonut, you echo my intent. If round 65 misfires in a shootout, I had no business picking a Walther anyway. And lastly Martin I agree with you. Don't expect a 80 year old Walther to perform with a modern Glock on durability and abuse.

[Shadow Catcher]

Originally Posted by austinmc62

Hi all. I am new to the forum and this is my first post. I have owned both Interarms and S&W PPK/S models and would like to comment on reliability complaints that people have with this weapon. It appears in reading this forum that most posters have lost sight of what the PP pistols are or were designed to be.
<SNIP>

I hope that all of you enjoy your PP, PPK, and PPK/S for the purpose it was intended for as I do mine. I enjoy the forum and look forward to reading the contents here.

Frankly I'm not sure what to make of this whole posting. Are you saying that the PP series were designed at a time when folks didn't expect a gun to do much, maybe fire a half dozen or so rounds and all was fine? Are you saying that they didn't make guns that were combat ready in those days and one had to baby them?

I'm not sure what you're really trying to do or say except maybe make a case for the PP series being antiques that are at best hanger queens, only good for a few rounds at the range, and then all bets are off.

I think folks expected firearms to be as good as they could be and as reliable as possible since day one. Fifty or more years before the PP series people were subjecting repeating firearms to a lot more drastic conditions than western europe had to offer and they expected them to work reliably. I doubt the German engineers didn't get that concept. The Walther was designed as a service pistol for police use and adapted for military use as well. They were'nt novices about those things back then.

Ammunition has evolved over that last few decades, and that has offered a few challenges to the PP and other antideluvian design's, but a few of them have kept up, and PP's are easily modified to accomodate.

I guess my own feeling is that while I will agree the .32 and .380 are marginal on their best days, the Walther PP series as designed should reliably function with a few hundred rounds through it before it starts to get finicky, and frankly, ought to go for a lot more. It should be as reliable as a stone hammer, and about as error prone. I can deal with issues of finicky magazines, and will gladly go through the process of sorting them out, along with a favorite ammunition. After that is done I expect any Walther PP design I carry will function reliably for several hundred rounds between cleaning, or it's going to get worked over or traded.

I have a few 138 year old design repeating firearms that will go at least that far, and a few 100 year old designed firearms that will go further. I have the same expectations of these guns, and my German made and Interarms made versions have easily done just that . . .


Shadow Catcher

[153]

Going 500 rounds without cleaning a firearm is like going a month without changing your shorts - it can be done, but why? The results will never be pretty!

Good quality pistols deserve proper care. I don't think it matters when a firearm was made, they always function better with proper maintaince. Just because my Glock will shoot a thousand rounds without fail doesn't mean it should be used that way.

A soldier has alot of motivation to keep his weapon clean - his life depends on it. Just because a pistol is issued with a holster that has a single magazine pouch sewn onto it does not mean the pistol was designed to fire only two magazines without fail.

"They later mutated into side arms for Nazi party leaders and Gestapo officers."

That's casual history at best. Walthers were widely issued and designed before those Nazi pigs started crawling out of the beerhalls to damn near destory the world.

[Glenn-SC]

The most I've put though my S&W PPK/S at a single sitting was 135 rounds.