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Old 06-27-2011, 07:13 PM   #21
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The ONLY PPKs with serial number factory applied to both frame AND slide prior to approx serial #335 xxx K were those produced under contract to the SS/RSHA. These occured in a serial number range from a low of 242 xxx K up to a high of 355 xxx K. They were also supplied with two factory serial numbered magazines with the serial numbers applied to the spine of the mag.

Prior to approx #335 xxx K a mag with the gun was not required to prove SS issue. After that point the factory finally figured out that scratching serial numbers inside the slide prior to the bluing tank would not be necessary for reassembly if the number was stamped on the exterior of the slide. From then on a matching mag was needed.

This is known as a type 4 variation and the mag marking looked like this.
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File Type: jpg 307188 K (13).jpg (58.3 KB, 59 views)
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Old 06-27-2011, 07:48 PM   #22
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Tepo911 .22
Just a comment regarding variations of SS issued PPKs.

There are five main variations that have been identified. In some early attempts to spell out details, several additional subvariations were referred to as separate variations.

One of those is the few muzzle marked PPKs that exceeded the million mark and prior to changing over to the K suffix numbering system. In my opinion passing the million serial number did not qualify this to be a separate variation.

The second ocurred in April of 1940 when the commercial test proof called Crown over N (nitro) was changed to the Nazi Eagle over N. This change was universal and all guns coming from Walther and other manufacturers from that point on contained the E/N test proof marking. Again, in my opinion not reason to identify a totally separate variation.

Both of these should be considered as a subvariation at best. If a collector wishes to take these and other minor details to the limit in an effort to find and purchase them all, the list can become long and confusing.

Therefore, in my book the variations have been kept to a minimum of five. Those containing major and easily identifiable changes in markings and details.
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Last edited by Tepo911; 06-27-2011 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 06-27-2011, 08:16 PM   #23
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MGMike .38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tepo911 View Post
The ONLY PPKs with serial number factory applied to both frame AND slide prior to approx serial #335 xxx K were those produced under contract to the SS/RSHA. These occured in a serial number range from a low of 242 xxx K up to a high of 355 xxx K...
Excuse me for being the skeptic, but if there are no markings overtly identifying the guns produced for the SS/RSHA, how do you know that guns that have the s/n applied to both frame & slide were not produced for others as well?

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Last edited by MGMike; 06-27-2011 at 08:19 PM.
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Old 06-27-2011, 09:46 PM   #24
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Long story but I will post some of it.

In 1998 while searching SS documents held in Archives in Munich since WWII, Joachim Gortz and Dieter Marschall discovered hundreds of index cards documenting the issue of Walther PPs and PPKs to members of the SS/RSHA. After the war, the SS among other organizations was declared to be a criminal organization and its members declared to be criminals. The OSS eagerly tracked them down and these index cards, signed by recipients were kept as evidence of their membership. They published a small booklet containing this information which came to be called "The Red Booklet". It was quickly sold out and eagerly sought. It gives a great deal of information regarding the structure of the RSHA.

Over the years, one of the most highly regarded researchers and most knowledgeable collectors alive began to collect data regarding guns listed in this book and found to still exist. His name is John Pearson and he lives in California. He published a series of articles over the years in a collectors publication called "Auto Mag". (Pre computer). His articles and the research that he developed was highly regarded and debated for years. Over a period of time his findngs were confirmed by others and eventually came to be the gold standard for the identification of SS/RSHA PP/PPKs.

Several years ago, I was contacted by Dieter Marschall the surviving author of The Red Booklet. He had been inundated for years with requests to reprint his book. Since the demand was mainly in this country, it was not feasible for him to do it. He asked if I would help him by arranging for a printing here. I did so and eventually satisfied the demand here and worldwide. I still have a number of those available.

I took the next step by following clues which I found in his book, investing a great deal of time and money. I waded through hundreds of thousands of top secret SS documents still on file in the National Archives in this country and eventually found these same documents. I purchased them and then did additional research and eventually published them all in a new book along with a great deal of additional information.. (Title at the bottom of my posts).

I'm sure that is more than you want to know. More specifically to your question, all of this research regarding this variation cross confirms its issue as SS. A number were found to still exist which are documented in my book (and The Red Booklet) and which still had both serial numbered magazines with the gun. There were others found with documentation from the day of capture still with numbered magazines and containing factory applied serial numbers on both slide and frame. Enough of these were found along with documents included in my book to convince experts in the field that this variation was not produced for other buyers until approx serial 335 xxx K .

If your question is have all guns ever produced by Walther been found and is there proof that one or more were serial numbered along with mags and NOT a part of an SS contract then the answer of course, is no. All evidence points to exactly the opposite.

The books are available, the articles are available. Read them and decide for yourself. Better yet, I suggest that you call John Pearson. His number is 818-769-3509. Tell him I referred you (and this goes for anyone else reading this) He will be happy to talk to you and will give you much more information than I am giving you here.
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Old 06-27-2011, 10:50 PM   #25
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Steven: Thank you for this extended explanation. You have done a lot of diligent work in an area that obviously interests you a great deal; I have spent months in the National Archives myself many years ago, and I understand the dedication that was required of you.

I concede that your conclusion might well be correct. I don't see any point in continuing this discussion further, as very frankly the distinctions between the multifarious Nazi police and security organizations don't interest me that much.

But I will make two observations. Whatever proof might be adduced from the existence of matching magazines is absent from the OP's gun; he doesn't even have a proper PPK magazine, let alone a matching pair. Which brings me back to my original question: "...if there are no markings overtly identifying the guns produced for the SS/RSHA, how do you know that guns that have the s/n applied to both frame & slide were not produced for others as well?"

I don't doubt that you have found guns that can be documented as SS/RHSA issue, but unless you've found an index card with the OP's s/n on it, I don't see how his gun can be positively identified as such.

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Old 06-27-2011, 11:47 PM   #26
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I have a proposal for you. Should you find a PPK Type 4 variation in 95% or better original finish with no matching numbered magazine I would not keep it. It is of no interest to you and cannot be confirmed as anything special.

I would request that you contact me, I will gladly pay you $2,000 for it if it checks out as original finish etc. If you find ten, I will pay you the same price for each one.

Can't beat a deal like that.
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Old 06-28-2011, 08:13 AM   #27
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MGMike .38
Yes, the bottom line somehow always turns out to be how much it's worth if it can be "confirmed as something special".

I've asked the same question twice now, and it still hasn't been answered.

But I'm content to leave this, and go on to something else more productive.

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Old 06-28-2011, 09:37 AM   #28
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Mike,
Good choice. What other areas of Walther PP/PPK collecting do you find to be more productive and interesting?
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Old 06-28-2011, 02:51 PM   #29
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Well, It appears that a definitive answer is out of the question, as is often the case in matters such as this. However, the gun has definitely risen in value in my mind from the $350 I spent on it, and If I have it for any length of time, I will have to make sure I keep it well taken care of in light of its historical significance.
Thanks to everyone who has contributed.
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Old 06-28-2011, 03:26 PM   #30
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No, I think you do have a definitive answer. There is no evidence of any kind from any source indicating that PPks in that serial number range were issued to anyone, unit, individual, organization, etc except to the SS/RSHA.

If you are interested in value, which some here think to be exceedingly gauche, I suspect you will find a buyer in the price range mentioned notwithstanding its worn finish.
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