Anyone use a P99 in an Action Pistol/ IDPA league?

[SERIOUS]

It was the postal match.. There was no equipment check really . They just kinda glanced at my holster and and mag holder. But nobody looked at my gun. I had to ask what division to put down when i signed in. Maybe they're more relaxed about it here..

[Lef-T]

Originally Posted by extremist

Actually if you shoot a P99 AS, you MUST decock and shoot as SSP. You cannot leave the striker cocked because there is no manual safety and the gun has a decocker, so you must decock.

Same for all DA guns with decockers (like Sigs, etc.). If it can't be cocked and locked, you must decock

Regards,
James

So here's my take on it. I can't find anywhere in the rules that says you must decock. The only rule I can find that would apply is this:

C 15. Pistols must start from the mechanical condition of
readiness appropriate to their design and be loaded to division
capacity (See Appendix One – Equipment, Firearms for
division capacity explanation). High capacity magazines must
be loaded to full division capacity of the division the contestant
is shooting in.

One could argue that AS mode is a mechanical condition of readiness appropriate to the pistol's design. Making that interpretation would require you to shoot ESP. The rules for SSP and ESP are:

SSP (letters B & H are the catch)
Handguns permitted for use in this division must:
A. Be semi-automatic.
B. Be double action, double action only, or safe action (when
the trigger is pulled, the hammer/striker is cocked and then
released).
C. Be 9mm (9x19) or larger caliber.
D. Have a maximum unloaded weight of 39oz., including an
empty magazine. (Will be effective January 25, 2006)
E. Have a minimum annual production of 2000 units;
(discontinued models must have had a total production of
20,000 units).
F. Fit in the IDPA gun test box measuring 8 ¾” x 6” x 1 5/8”
with an empty magazine inserted.
G. Be loaded to the division capacity of ten (10) rounds in the
magazine plus one (1) round in the chamber. Should division
capacity not be achievable because of lower magazine
capacity, load to maximum mechanical capacity of magazine
plus one (1) round in the chamber. Competitors must use the
same capacity magazines through out the competition 20
(Example: if you start with a 9 round magazine, you must use
that capacity magazine throughout the match).
H. Begin hammer down for selective DA/SA pistols

ESP
Handguns permitted for use in this division must:
A. Be semi-automatic.
B. Be 9mm (9x19) or larger caliber.
C. Have a maximum unloaded weight of 43 oz., including an
empty magazine.
D. Fit in the IDPA gun test box measuring 8 ¾” x 6” x 1 5/8.”
with an empty magazine inserted.
E. Be loaded to the division capacity of ten (10) rounds in the
magazine plus one (1) round in the chamber. Should division
capacity not be achievable because of lower magazine
capacity, load should be to maximum mechanical capacity of
magazine plus one (1) round in the chamber. Competitors
must use the same capacity magazines through out the
competition (Example: if you start with a 9 round magazine,
you must use that capacity magazine throughout the match).

So the short answer as I understand it is you can choose:
a) Decock and shoot SSP
b) AS mode and shoot ESP

If anyone has a different interpretation or knows of another rule that would apply to the situation please let me know.

Should we also discuss decocking for USPSA?

[Uzzi]

Originally Posted by SERIOUS

I sent in m online app for IDPA.. seems like a fun way for the average person (non military or police) to become more competent with their guns.. I plan on using my 9mm P99as

If there are military and police on here - don't take this the wrong way, but at my local IDPA club, the police that come are the worst shooters out there. I, for one, am glad they are there, but I learned quickly to dispell the notion that because a policemen has been "trained" doesn't mean they maintain or ever had proficiency with a weapon.

I can tell you from my personal experience that Police do not get tactical shooting training in LEO school prior to joining a force. THings may have changed in the last 10 years, but a stance was not taught, nor a grip, only breathing and squeezing the trigger. As long as you could hit the target, you were passed.

The military guys that come are some of the best shooters I see. Just an observation. I realize that all Police are not into guns as a hobby or a passion and it is just a tool for their job. Nothing wrong with that, but the ones that can't shoot worth a flip I hope they never have to use their weapon.

[extremist]

Your observations are spot on and mirror mine exactly. We (safety officers) watch the police that come shoot at our matches VERY carefully as they have a lot of bad safety habits (our sample maybe not EVERYONE). We've had a few military come through and shoot our matches, and they were more proficient, but the one that smoked all of us regulars was an "operator" that showed up for a while to keep his skills up .

The other funny group that shows up sometimes are some of the local gun range cowboys that teach CHL and other "Pistol" classes. They usually only last a couple of matches being humbled by even our MM shooters, and don't come back. Those that do, stay and learn and see that they could use some improvement

James

[Tony1911]

Originally Posted by Lef-T

So here's my take on it. I can't find anywhere in the rules that says you must decock. The only rule I can find that would apply is this:

C 15. Pistols must start from the mechanical condition of
readiness appropriate to their design

That rule is exactly what says the gun must be decocked. Double-action firearms are generally carried decocked. Also, the P99 manual (at least ones I've seen) specifically state that the gun must be carried decocked. Hence, the "mechanical condition of readiness appropriate to its design" for a Walther P99 is decocked.

Personally, I think it would be rather neat if the P99 AS could be left cocked (as the design of the gun makes this, in my opinion, at least as safe a practice as holstering a loaded Glock, and removes the issues regarding firing first shot in double action mode), but the rules seem pretty clear to me. A rule clarification permitting the use of a cocked P99 would be neat, but it seems to me that getting one would be very unlikely unless you can find something from Walther that specifically states that carrying the gun cocked, trigger forward, is okay.

Oh yeah, and in regards to the original question: I've used a P99 for several years in IPSC. I did okay with it, although I did have some trouble with the double-action first shot and transitioning to single action. (Slow first shot, and hits on the first target were worse than the rest.) Moved to the 1911 platform eventually. Lately though, I've been learning to use a double-action revolver and mastering the trigger pull of that makes great exercise for my trigger finger - now that I've picked the P99 out of the safe and tried it, I've wondered what my problem with it was. I might take her for a spin in a couple of matches again, see how things go. We have IDPA over here now, and I kind of want to collect classification scores for as many divisions as possible (don't ask me why, just because ) - running the P99 as a SSP through a classifier should give me a pretty good idea if the DA/SA thing will still be an issue for me, or if I've worked past that.

[Biped]

You can always shoot the cocked P99 AS in ESP class. I just switched to a PPQ this year for IDPA and need to shoot ESP.

[Tony1911]

Biped, did you actually read my previous message? Even the beginning part?